Great post. Thank you for the information.

I want a female like your pup after a lot more study.

Excellent advice; I've spoken with Randy Hare a few years ago; I'll call him again.

Thank you.

I have abandoned the idea of buying a 'breeding pair'. You will not be surprised when I tell you that I had some breeders say that they would be glad to sell me such a pair.

Boy, this is a crash course, a fountainhead of very valuable information; I'm most worried about the scam aspect.

I am going to continue to read and search for breeders and especially that local club but I am not very confident there are any near to where I live.

As for working the dogs, I have now taken that mental step that I have been avoiding. Hands on in anything just makes sense, don't it?

Yes, Mike and that is what i meant when i said if he had the means, meaning To go and see the Dogs for himself,
As for me I guess i am an old fashioned guy, fair play to all or nothing at all is the way i live,
I would do my best to see the Guy in the USA had a Fair deal my reputation means more to me than any money, i can handle the stick at my end should they get onto me without good cause,
But as we all know no matter what we think we know regards choices, its a bit of Luck in everything we buy, Fred was a 'reject' the last in the Litter,
I saw him, and thought at the time i could see something with spirit in the pup, and i am far from a soft guy to buy just because he was the last one but i think in the end i will have a good Dog, after we iron out a little blip he will go forwards

Jim,
If you want to minimize the discepancies lamented on in an earier post, yes, hands on is the only way to do it. Find a trusted proffessional to learn from, to help with finding the right dog, and to guide in the continued work a dog like your looking for will need and you've gotten a good start. In the mean time you can study on the art of breeding magic. While I know the the basics (it just so happens, I know how puppys are made), how the good breeders can look at two dogs and just know it's a good match just seems like magic to me. But I'm pretty sure though there's more to it than 2+2=4. Well what ever, it's a moot point at the moment (unless you spring for the big $$$ and buy a proven animal) as you are at least a couple of years away from even thinking of breeding a bitch or not. If one applies oneself, alot can be learned in two years.
Keep calling and talking to breeders and sellers, once you hear the BS start sign off and go to the next one in line. The first question they should ask you is 'what do you want the dog to do'. You tell them, just as you've told all of us. What you'll get back as a matter of course will be, 'oh sure my dogs can do anything you want'. Bull*%^8. Move on to the next one in line. The reputable breeders will own up to what their dogs are fit for be it companion dogs, ringsport, or the prettiest damn dog on the block. Those are the breeders that is worth your time to talk to, they may in some way aide you in your quest of breeding and keeping a line together. Because Jim I don't think any one book is going to do it, maybe one good large library dedicated to dogs, but not any one book. So I think you should seek out all the help you can find. For me at least, two years wouldn't be enough (I'm a slow learner).
Don't worry, keep winnowing out the chaff, there are good reputable breeders out there, you just have to wait for the dust to clear is all.

Good luck Jim.
Randy

Jim,
I'd like to weight in again, if I may. I understand the move toward GSDs. Myself, like and think they are the best over all dog ever developed. However considering your criteria, and your interest in breeding, I'm wondering why GSDs? Why not start with a breed that historically doesn't even like people outside of its' pack. The breed barely survived WWII. That was because the Nazi just shot them on sight rather than deal with them. As I understand they are a natural herd guard with little or no training at all, and in the extreme don't like people at all. In my life of meeting dogs I've only met one and possibly two, I remember them always as very sure of themselves and not anything I would willingly mess about with. And two of them in one place, I'd want arms, just like the Nazis decided.
If I wanted dogs like you have determined you want and decided to continue a line of high quality intended for what the breed was intended I would look to the Kuvasz.
The old lines will be very hard to find and probably very expensive, but to continue a noble line..........What more can I say?

Kuvasz.

I would second a recomendation for the Kuvasz, as I have been around a few of them. They are no less intense of a dog than a GSD, but are essentially very territorial/resource guarding/pack oriented. They are stable and intelligent as a general rule, extremely aloof. If you are not part of the pack, and you are not a threat, you just plain don't matter.

Herd guardian breeds like the Kuvasz and Anatolian, I've heard good things about them being naturally capable "sentries" with limited training. These are breeds that have been bred to defend a flock or herd without the presence of humans, from either humans or large predators including bears, wolves, lions, leopard, cheetahs, etc. Finding a working line might be more challenging, but I don't think you'd be paying any more for a Kuvasz or Anatolian than you would for a quality working GSD.

Jennifer,
and Jim if your still with what should be and is going to be a long road if your serious, the Kuvasz seemed like at good match to me. As I understand the animal suffers people more then takes to them. Very independent and would just as soon be left alone to take care of himself. A very regal and old, old line that in this day and age has no relevance for it's natural attributes. Which is territorial and agressive in defending that territory from birth. To the casual eye they would blend right in with the Pyrenees but what a ugly surprise on crossing the line. They really don't like people, or anything for that matter, not of the pack. In fact, Ive read from some renown trainer or another opine that this dog should not be considered for a pet because, if I may paraphrase, it thinks its a sheep, it wants to be a sheep, it has no empathy with man, in fact really dislikes man, and only suffers 'the human' that feeds him. I read somewhere that the Germans found the guardians so tenacious and dangerous they just starting shooting them on sight, almost wiping them out.
The linages would so limited it would be a snap to follow and learn and one could be part of reviving a noble breed.
Seemed like a perfect fit to me.
Randy

Randy-

While I agree that they do not bond to humans in general, they are traditionally a family dog - they were used by nobility as personal protectors, and it was after that that "commoners" used them as a livestock guardian. The dogs that "think they are sheep" are the ones that are left with sheep, same as the Anatolians that are left with the goat herds.

It is not species specific, if a Kuvaz was left with llamas it would be the same as if it was left with sheep or goats - the llamas become the pack, as do the sheep and the goats, etc. It isn't that they do not like humans, if raised with humans, then humans are their pack. They bond closely with their pack and are territorial. They are what I consider beta-bred dogs, dogs that are primarily beta in rank, the large enforcers of the pack. But as with any breed there are variances in temperament and type as they have been bred more as house pets over the last 50 or so years which focused on softer less drivey dogs.

The 4 Kuvasz I came across, the owner brought them into the pet store I worked at in Wisconsin. They ignored everybody that did not come within 4-5 feet. Then they gave a good stare and watched them until they moved on, if they were not a threat, they were ignored, but this dog was responsive and attentive to the owner. It just couldn't care less about anyone outside of the family pack.

One thing with them is that because they are so pack oriented, you really need to work with them and bond if you have more than one or they become doggy. The lady I knew that had the 4 adults was a small-scale breeder. She only bred the dogs to keep the pups for herself - she was an older lady I thought she was Hungarian but I could very well be wrong about that. She grew up with them, said it was the only dog she would ever own.

"Hungarian rulers kept Kuvasz as personal bodyguards. The name comes from the Turkish word kawasz, which means 'armed guard of the nobility.'"

It is a great breed, I looked into them when I was in my search for "my breed."

The one or two I met were memoriable in demeanor. And have honestly wanted to meet another ever since. To bad they're so rare. Maybe even in the toned down model they are too much for todays world.
I have to admit though you've got me on an Anatolian. Okay you let on they are goat herd guardians, but I've never heard of or even seen a picture of one. Now I'm off on a web search.

Kuvasz!
Sounds like a salutation doesn't it.
Randy