Quote:

Originally posted by Todd E. Gaster:
Karmen, do you lay awake at night to think of these scenarios? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

With the amount of GSDs out there, no I would not use this dog as a stud. Why are we sending the x-rays to both places at the same time anyway? Are we hedging our bets?

No laying awake at night for me? That's what Xanax is for LOL <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Yes, there are plenty of studs out there to breed too BUT not many that may match your bitch or what you may be looking for. Maybe this dog is really something and it's a dog you really like and compliments your female's pedigree and her personality.

It's a hypothetical question, but very real. It happens all the time. Why not send to both registries? Why not see what the SV says compared to the OFA? I think it is very important to compare evalutaions. It shows the wide margin of errors or should I say opinions of many orthopedic radiologists. My concern is the huge difference in their opinions.

There is also the problem with sending in the same x-rays two different times getting two different ratings. How am I to know the dog I use as a stud didn't fail first? I know of at least two people this happened too. Melissa has a point on looking at different breeds then switching. I know they aren't suppose to do that but hey it can happen and probably does.

Originally posted by ikor:
This is, I suppose, a hypothetical question with some basis in reality...somewhere?

First question: No

Second Question: No

My question...Is the hypothetical breeder going to guarantee any pups to be free of dysplasia at 2yr.? And, why on earth would I wish to breed to a stud that had this discrepancy when there are many others out there as good without it? Why do you think it's the stud that has the dicrepancy? Why isn't one or the other registries that has the problem reading the x-rays?

Karmen;
That is absolutely true...point well taken. Still the discrepancy IS one involving this particular dog. Since I have two bitches, and may well decide to breed one day, my un-hypothetical opinion is that I don't want to have to fight this war with any stud dog I decide to use...JMO...but I AM the one paying the stud fee.

By the way, many european breeders will tell you privately that there has yet to be any definitive proof that breeding hip-certified dogs to hip-certified dogs makes one drop of difference in the number of offspring that end up as dysplastic. Kinda makes you wonder what happens "behind closed doors" huh?

Todd;
Have not received anything yet, but things are running slow this PM.

I realize that PennHip is more expensive than OFA, but it seems to me that to do the PennHip study removes all of the subjectivity that is being discussed.

So if I were to breed a dog I would think that the PennHip is the best indicator of the true condition of the hips.

If breeders only bred dogs by PennHip results over time I think there would be an improvement in the hips.

Also, I think vets would get the training needed to do the exam if there was a greater awareness out there.Law of supply and demand.

If people will pay 1000$ plus for a dog, what is another 200 more to have an accurate,non-political exam?

This is just my .02 <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Karmen, if I liked your dogs temperament, pedigree and looks I would breed your dog in a heart beat and to hell with OFA - they have their head stuck in the preverbial pile of dog shit half the time and I have little to no respect for their opinion. If I could chalk their inconsistency up to a simple mistake every now and then I may be able to live with it - but these people have some serious quality control problems.

Penn Hip is flawed by its concept. They forget the fact that young dogs are loose ligamented and ligaments tighten with age. I would never Penn hip a dog. I don't recommend people Penn hip their dogs and I do not accept Penn hip opinions in my decision to replace a dog that comes from my breeding program that has been penn hipped.

With all due respect..I do agree with some of Mr Frawley's statements; however, I also want to point out the possible end result that may occur which effects the health of the resulting pups.

On the breeding end..you like the temperment, looks etc..but what about the possibility of producing an ill health pup that is prone to displasia which will be sold/given away to a home?

My old GSD (God rest her soul)is not yet in her grave a year and only because of bad hips. There was nothing else wrong with her and she could no longer support her own weight. Up until that time; I was (with her limited assistance) guiding her outside and back in as she was too unsteady on her own and was prone to fall without my assistance. It absolutely broke my heart, especially the day that the vet came out to end her pain.

When I was ready to get another GSD; I researched the various breeders within my area comparing the various temperments and bloodlines. My deciding factor was based upon both sire and dam having a healthy hip rating so I may lesson the possibilities of a repeated story. Sure..I could have spent a lot less money on a pup but the quality of dog and guarentee of hip health won my heart!

Just food for thought on the purchase end.

Barb, I think Ed was posting his opinions of the OFA, not breeding dogs with bad hips. OFA has been known to give surprise ratings (both ways) and personally I'd feel better knowing that I saw the films and knew that they were from the dog. Sending the films to a registry that gives clear numerical ratings makes sure that I, the average dog owner, don't miss something.

When Auster was OFAed the vet asked me for her chip number! So even with permanent ID there is a possibility that the rated hips are not from the dog that is getting the rating. So the rating can be wrong because of both ends. Personally, that isn't something that makes me confident.

Ed may breed to the dog, but he has a reputation that may allow him to explain away the lack of an OFA cert.

I don't, so I will continue to use OFA (until something better comes along).

Does anybody know anything about challenging an OFA on a dog? Is there a process? I guess I could go to the damn website and find out for myself. :rolleyes:

I have never had a problem, never had a dog come back without a good or better rating. I guess I'm lucky. . .

OK Ed, I just have to disagree w/ you here on this one area...If you truly understood the PennHip method then you could never have made the statement you did.

PennHip is Not flawed in it's concept as you say because the age of the dog is absolutely factored into the scientific calculation done with regard to laxity in the hip joint. Do you really think that the scientists who developed this exam don't realize that younger dogs will have looser joints??

If you go to the web site there is a a huge amount of info and it clearly explains all of the details of the exam.It also includes references to PennHips superiority to OFA and why.

http://www.vet.upenn.edu/pennhip

Happy reading <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

VanCamp, they tell you to send in another set of films and another fee. I refuse to give them more $$$ if they messed up the first time. They say that they send the films back if they are poorly positioned, but that has not been my experience (I guess poorly positioned means that the dog was standing on the table). If I ever get another set of films done on Auster they certainly won't go to the OFA.