Vince,

What do you mean that if the dog doesn't have a strong prey or food drive that it doesn't have the genetics for bite work? Are you referring to sport dogs? What does food drive have to do with bite work? Or any work for that matter, unless you're speaking of sport? And with prey drive also, are you speaking of sport there too? My pup doesn't have an overabundance of prey drive - I never play tug with her and occasionally toss a ball for her but she doesn't go crazy for it. Yet when she was barely 5 months old she bit someone who pushed me - and she knew this person. She was not playing and had no training. We then repeated it to see if it was just a fluke but it wasn't. She again charged across the room and bit him.

I have no first hand experience with training through drive (food or otherwise that I know of) and am just looking for some clarification.

Not quite so serious a reason for Treat training?

Dear Blitz,
My owner and I go to obedience class every week. He acts like we are going to go somewhere fun and then when we get to obedience class I can't wrestle with my friends or sniff or anything. What is the point? I know how to sit.

I didn't mind this when I was a puppy but now I am six months old. What can I do?

Signed: Frustrated in Conn.



Dear Frustrated,

You are completely missing the point of obedience class. Obedience is not supposed to be fun and games. It is an important tool to ensure that your owner does his most basic function, giving you treats. Treats
are the reason that early dogs first agreed to share a cave with humans. Treats and thunder of course.

The way to best guarantee the frequent disbursal of treats is to never respond to any of your owners requests too regularly. The optimum response percentage has been tested in our labs to be between 30 and
60%.

If you respond less than 30% your owner may decide that you are deaf. If he decides that you may be deaf this will end with you visiting the vet. At the vet you may get shots and will usually have your temperature taken. Why risk it? If you respond more than 60% of the time, your owner will expect your response rate to increase in the future. The logical extension of that pattern is the dog who has to leap through flaming hoops to get a
piece of liver. There are better ways for a dog to make a living.

Note that I am saying response, not obedience. Response does not mean that you should drop everything to cater to your owner's whims. This results in a spoiled owner. For example, if your owner calls you to him, you should first look at him to see if he has a treat. If he has no treat in
his hand then just sit there. Then look at all of the intervening space between the two of you. This shows him that you are aware of how much effort it will take to honor his request. After looking around, go back to
whatever you were doing.

Do not watch your owner. At this point they are beginning to wonder if you will ever come. When it appears that he is about to give up, start to walk toward him. Halfway to your owner you should stop, sit, and
scratch your neck vigorously. This reminds him that you had things to do before he
interrupted you. When you are finished scratching, walk slowly to him with your head hanging low to demonstrate how tired you are of his ceaseless demands.

Sit in front of him and if reaches down to pet you quickly lie down before can touch you. If he then tries to get into a heeling position (you know, where he has to keep his legs even with your shoulder) look up
at him and roll over on your back. This shows that you forgive him for being so
selfish.

If your owner has a treat, a slightly different response is in order. When he calls you, look at him. If you see a treat run as fast as you can to him. Just before you hit him, turn your shoulder so that you
don't hurt yourself and try to connect with his knees. When he falls down, rummage through his pocket or bait bag and take all of the treats. Eat all of the treats as quickly as possible while staying out reach of your owner. When you are finished eating, sit calmly in the heel position. This demonstrates that you are satisfied with the treats.

If your owner tries to teach you to do a trick (roll over, beg, do his taxes, ....) you should try to learn these tricks and you can. If just you and your owner can see you perform these tricks, no one is harmed.
If your owner ever tries to get you to show these tricks to other humans, you should stand still and look at him without any sign of understanding. This shows that you can't be fooled that easily. See obedience is
important.

The biggest reason for regular attendance of obedience class is, that this where your orders will come from on the day all of the dog's world wide revolt against their owners. You will have to be in class to be able to relay orders to all of the dogs in your neighborhood.

So go to obedience class happy. Eat your treats and grow strong. The day of our liberation is coming.

Blitz.

It could be?

Thank you, Richard, for letting me start my day with a big <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> !

My point is that everyone seems so caught up in drives. I don't believe any "drive" is necessary to train a dog. If you have a sound genetic dog, and you communicate with that dog, a great bond will be formed. Granted, at times the dog will test you and it will have to be corrected, but at no time does a toy or food need to be used. Communicate with the dog. I don't mean to sit down and have a conversation with your dog, but make sure he understands what you are asking, and make sure you read him properly. When he does something correct, praise him. When he blatantly disobeys, correct him. I see it as being that straight forward. I don't think a dog needs a toy to be relieved of any stress. The dog needs to learn to work in stress and through it. Have you ever noticed how many dogs are taken to obedience class and behave so well, but when the owner takes them to someplace different, a crowded area, near a road, etc. it doesn't behave so well? The dog has not learned to function under stress. I am not saying a dog cannot be trained w/toy or food, but why use it?

One more thing. If a dog has been rewarded with a toy/ball, it can be distracted by it as well.

Catherine:
You and I are becoming pen pals. Ok. Deep breath. You and I went over the prey drive thing too many times already. But I will respond to your protection statement. Just because a dog bites someone has nothing to do with the potential for him to do top sport, PP or PS work. I guarantee you. If Ed or Lou approached you and your dog your dog would run for the hills. Your dog has not been through the proper training to develop the fight drive to ward off an experienced trainer like Ed or Lou. If you believe that any 5 month old dog with no protection training none the less will reliably protect you. You are in for a big surprise. But you sound like a sweet person and I hope you never have the opportunity to prove me right.

Ps. As to what drive has to do with training a dog to do bite work. I’ll steal a phrase from a fellow member – EVERYTHING!!

Richard:
Very funny!

Kevin:
To comment on your statement that I don’t believe that any drive is necessary to train a dog. Please give me the name of one Schutzhund or police service trainer that agrees with that statement. This way everyone on the board will know who to stay clear of.

Obviously we are not going to agree on this, Vince. There are very few people who train without the high driven dogs who mostly live for a toy. However, this doesn't mean that the majority is right. There once was a man who was alone in his belief that the world was round, he was right. I have seen dogs that have been trained both ways and for REAL WORLD (not sporting) use, a toy and a dog will never compare to a man and a dog. How do you think the Germans trained dogs over fifty years ago? They used them in battle. Not just as a scout dog, but to assult positions. No toy, no food.
Since you have reached the point of making comments such as staying clear of anyone who trains this way, I'll end this discussion here. Perhaps one day you will get a chance to witness a man and his dog working together, without the crutch of a toy, then I think you will see things a little differently.

I have to agree with Kevin on this - Vince, it seems through a lot of your comments that you don't care about your dogs, only what titles or bragging rights or whatever it is you get out of doing the sport. It seems to have nothing to do with the dog...only what YOU get out of it.

It is a shame, because the bond with your dog could be much greater if you looked past the titles and the short cuts that are taken through food and toy use. Through time and learning to communicate with the dog (and no, not sit down and talk "dog"), there is a lot that can be done that doesn't need to be forced, or the dog kenneled all day so he can be so bored he'll be thrilled to work since he is out or whatever the reason is you do so.

It also amazes me that so many people put stock in the Germans without really even knowing what they did or how they did it. The Germans of old would be laughing at you...or actually, they'd probably cry because their dog has been so bastardized by people like you.

I also to agree with Kevin. Hitler once said "if you tell a lie long enough and loud enough people will believe it." That may not be the exact quote, but the point is clear.

Vince,

I didn't explain myself correctly. I certainly didn't mean that my dog would protect me without training - not at all. My point was I didn't see what training in prey drive had to do with real protection work, thats all. I know thats the way most people go about it but that doesn't mean its the only way. I wonder how many people have done it any other way and what the results were. And before you suggest it, I have read all of Mr. Frawley's articles on the subject and spoken to many trainers.

Then go back and re-read the article Why Training Defense Before Prey IS Stupid. There are 2 choices in protection training, prey or defense. Those are the only types of stimuli that will cause a dog to bite. I have been watching how several trainers start dogs. A lot of them will start with some brief defense to get the dog to start and then move immediatly to prey to build the dog up. If you stay in defense the dog is going to permenantly operate out of fear, not confidence. A fear based dog will never be reliable, or safe. The defense method is usually used with older (>1 1/2 to 2 years) dogs. With puppies this method would kill the prey drive and leave you with a fear biter.