Quote: Jennifer Marshal

What is has to do with a dogs drive, hardness, threshhold, etc .... What would be painful to a lower threshold soft dog is like a flick of a finger to a hard dog. ... I knew an AB that had it's leg broken by a boar it was after and still went after the boar and fought the boar down ....

None of this means that dogs don't feel pain, of course (and I know you did not mean to imply that ... I am just clarifying). But a dog in drive --- well as you say, pain does not have the same impact on a dog in drive like that. As I have mentioned (as as I have seen/heard about many many others), when my granddog, a working earth dog, was pulled out of a hollow log by the tail with a face FULL of quills, all that dog wanted was to get back in there and back to the fight. He was enraged, and the hundreds of quills buried in every inch of his face meant nothing to him but an impedimant to getting his head squeezed back into the porcupine's doorway.

Back to your point: Correct; pain is not the point.

It is said on the forum regularly but bears frequent repeating: ANY tool can be used abusively. This isn't just a platitude. The e-collar wasn't invented to hurt the dog. There are people who will use it that way, of course. But there are people who will tie a dog to a post in the sun, and there are people who will kick the dog in the belly with a booted foot. It has nothing to do with the rope or the boot.

Yes, thanks Connie. Better said than my attempt

Someone PM'd me about the analogy: "but the robe and the boot were not invented as dog training tools."

Well, muzzles were, and when AC in the next county seized dogs in a drug raid last summer -- one of them was muzzled as punishment for something, and left like that, unable to eat.*

The analogy stands. And ANY tool can be used abusively.

I liked Cindy's point: "If having 4 ecollars and a harness and a dominant dog collar and a clicker and a ball and a long line are what I 'may' need, then I will put those training tools on my dog and in my pocket."



*The dog is OK and has a new home.

 Quote: jennifer marshal

Yeah I put my hand on the horse fence once I lost my balance and my hand happened to find the top rail with the wire attached. That smarted but it wasn't that bad. I did still end up on the ground though hah.

Don't feel bad my old Malamute Wolf cross got me into a shocking situation with 50 head of cattle late one fall evening.

We were living up in the sticks in Western Quebec and I used to run the dog when I couldn't use a bike beside the car on the dirt road usually later at night. So we used to trot him along and then make him sprint the last bit. That usually involved dropping the leash ... oh oh.

Well we were going and then the dog scoots off into a field he found 50+ head of cattle!! He was herding them around like a champ. We were not sure if there was a bull in the herd so we approached tenatively. The dog was not responding to anything he just kept merrily clacking his teeth at the cows heels.

That went on for 10 minutes or so then the dog put a good portion of the herd into the barn. There was a corral leading up to the barn about 20 ft long by 10 foot wide. The dog was in the barn barking merrily away with the herd and we thought we have him cornered .. oh oh.

We decided to approach and snag the dog but just as we were approaching the barn. The cows decided to make a run for it!! A big shape flies by my right, another by my left!! (it is pitch black remember) My buddy is yelling "get to the fence get to the fence!". I run and trip and grab this wire as I go down slipping and sliding through what we determined later was cow dung ...ZZZZZZiiing!!! It was an electric fence and boyua did it have a good battery. Then a few cows to add insult to injury step all over me. I had bruises up my legs, back and buttocks!

The dog skipped merrily by with me laying in the cow poo and then continued to herd the cattle. The only thing that stopped him was when he decided to go for a pee that was the only way we could catch him.

I tell you never a dull moment!! I was lucky I didn't get killed!

 Quote: Ed Frawley

Rick - you have a lot to learn and I suggest you sit back and read.

While everyone is welcome to have an opinion - with experience you will often learn that your opinions were wrong.

No insult intended - but you lack experience. We have all been there at one point in time or another.

You have posted your opinions here - thats enough. It's time to start reading and learning.

Oh, thank you for having pity on me for my lack of experience...I feel much better now... Seriously, though, for me the point of this is learning, and I do highly respect the people who are posting here. So, thank you all for helping me understand where you are coming from.

The only thing I have said so far that is an opinion, is that you shouldn't use a dog in sportwork if it requires three ecollars worth of stim to gain compliance. I never said you shouldn't train actual working dogs this way. I also never said we shouldn't breed these dogs for working, never said I wanted a certain type of dog, hard or soft.....only talking about breeding and selecting dogs for sportwork that are so high-drive that they require a level of stim that I consider to be unfair for the goal of a better score.

No one has really adressed this. Although it seems that you all disagree with me, no one will actually advocate using these tools for sportwork in this fashon. (using three ecollars because the dog is so driven that high level stim doesn't phase him) I am glad no one is advocating it, of course...Also everyone is telling me over and over that they don't use the stim at the same time, so I am glad about that. I am just trying to point out here that my opinion is that dogs shouldn't be put through this treatment for points. That's pretty much it. And as long as no one is really using ecollars to give great amounts of compulsion for sportwork, but rather using them in the fashon that you all talk about, (a gentle nudge, low level) I don't see anything wrong with that. And now that you all assured me that this isn't a common practice, I can just go along on my merry way!...

Oh! I also never said I was against ecollars, I almost forgot that one...

Also, like Robin, I would like to see video of the handlers using multiple ecollars for direction. This sounds interesting.

 Quote: Rick Miller

.... only talking about breeding and selecting dogs for sportwork that are so high-drive that they require a level of stim that I consider to be unfair for the goal of a better score.

 Quote: Cindy Easton Rhodes

Repeat, we are NOT breeding for sport, we are breeding for Police Service dogs or dogs that at least would be capable of police work. It turns out that many of these dogs end up in sport homes, but again breeding for sport only is a huge mistake. ...

I should mention, that I am glad you aren't breeding your dogs for sport, and I also never said you did.

So, no offense to all, and to all a good night!

I only want to add that while I understand where you are coming from, I still think you might misunderstand a bit.

The 3 Ecollars are not used to force compliance, I think you are still focusing on the potential pain factor here. I don't think the use of 3 or 4 Ecollars is very common, anyways. Yes I have seen two on one dog but I have never seen a bellyband in use on a dog. I would think that when multiple collars are being used in training it is how Kadi described as directional and specific, used with finesse - not used with cruel intentions and not used because the dog just requires pain to control it.

I would also ask.. if not used for sport, what would you use this dog for, and how would you propose to train this super high drive hard dog to do this thing you wish it to? Yes we all have different methods and theories and ideas etc but I am curious about your focus on "points" and "putting a dog through" something as if it is all negative. If the dog was being forced and treated poorly and pain was a common and often used method I doubt it would do well in sport anyways!

My focus with my dogs is as real PPDs. Sportwork is all a side hobby, more of an afterthought. Sportwork can help prove a dogs ability versus the owner just saying "yeah, he is trained" with no proof.

As a future breeder of working dogs, I will not breed dogs without titles (not to mention all the health aspects hips eyes elbows etc etc etc) I do not think titles make the dog. The dog makes the titles, the titles are the proof of the quality of the dog and the trainer. Not to say a dog without titles is worthless, but my personal view is that titles and sportwork is an important part of having a working dog. This is of course not including PSDs and MWDs - their work is their proof. Anybody can say their dog is trained as such and such for this and that by so and so. Either you have the knowledge and opportunity to evaluate these dogs yourself, or you have titles that at least show some sort of training and ability.

 Quote: jennifer marshal

I only want to add that while I understand where you are coming from, I still think you might misunderstand a bit.

The 3 Ecollars are not used to force compliance, I think you are still focusing on the potential pain factor here. I don't think the use of 3 or 4 Ecollars is very common, anyways. Yes I have seen two on one dog but I have never seen a bellyband in use on a dog. I would think that when multiple collars are being used in training it is how Kadi described as directional and specific, used with finesse - not used with cruel intentions and not used because the dog just requires pain to control it.

I get it.

 Quote: jennifer marshal

I would also ask.. if not used for sport, what would you use this dog for, and how would you propose to train this super high drive hard dog to do this thing you wish it to? Yes we all have different methods and theories and ideas etc but I am curious about your focus on "points" and "putting a dog through" something as if it is all negative. If the dog was being forced and treated poorly and pain was a common and often used method I doubt it would do well in sport anyways!

Well, apparently I had a misconception about this. The reason I kept asking about points is because I was questioning the validity of continuing to push the envelope with regards to drive to the point where the dogs require this level of correction in order to listen for the goal of points. I got the impression that people were using the belly collar because the dogs would ignore a full-blown ecollar correction, which isn't the case, so I have no axe to grind.

Ok. I knew where you were coming from, and admit that the thought of using 3 ecollars all at once or strictly to cause pain/discomfort is not a good thought. Just because a dog has super high drives and a hard temperament doesn't mean it needs super heavy handed training or extreme amounts of correction - it depends on the training the dog has had. Some people just automatically always use the most they have, almost in fear they can't control the dog any other way. My theory is you start from the bottom up. If you start out giving everything, you have nothing left when met with another challenge.

Me, I would put two Ecollars on a dog so that they didn't have to be so tight and it would be more comfortable for the dog/not impede with breathing. I would also consider it for a dog I knew was hard as a precautionary measure just in case I did happen to need more stim than one collar could give. Often once a dog has been given a real big stim, enough to have an affect, you don't need to use it again, or do very rarely.