Quote: Jennifer N. Hack

The first thing they learn is heeling. .... And yes, a prong collar is a training necessity IMO.

You are not able to teach heeling without a prong? Just pointing out that it does read that way.

I can, but I don't. I could teach things 10 different ways, but I choose the one I feel is most effective. If the dog pulls either ahead or back, I snap back with quick snaps, then reward with praise when hes heeling, and teach turns, that's the first thing I do with a new dog. Not all dogs are going to understand the stopping method, although I have used that too, it's not always effective and is time consuming. If you do it that way, start in a distraction-free environment and hope the dog is into its handler. A leash and a prong collar is essential, because they will both be signals to the dog he will understand. I can teach my Malinoises everything on a flat collar, but these are dogs that are extremely easy to train, not all the dogs I get are like that, some are large adults who have been pulling their whole life.

I would also like to say, OT, that I use the term "Pinch collar", not prong, I know they are interchangeable, but I think pinch collar is a preferable term, since what it does is pinch the scruff when it constricts, as the prongs are on an angle.

We disagree.

It's a tool, yes. In fact, I think that it's a good one!

But I don't consider a pinch collar to be a training necessity for 4-month-olds.

 Quote: Jennifer N. Hack

I am training several puppies right now who are a bit over 4 months, a prong collar can be used with a light hand. The first thing they learn is heeling.

And yes, a prong collar is a training necessity IMO.

You're right; if your goal is to achieve reliable immediate obedience from a 4-month-old puppy anytime and anywhere, the only way to do this is with force (with most pups anyway).

Of course this begs the question: why on earth should a 4-month-old puppy HAVE to perform obedience commands in the first place? Do you have some kind of deadline that you have to meet as far as their training?

Why not show a little patience and stick to purely motivational training until the pup grows up?

Lol, Connie, the same thing came to my mind. It's not very difficult to teach puppies to heel using food and a clicker

Were you unable to accomplish this Jennifer?

 Quote: Yuko Blum

Why not show a little patience and sticking to purely motivational training until the pup grows up?

Lol, Connie, the same thing came to my mind. It's not very difficult to teach puppies to heel using food and a clicker

This was my thought too.... marker training for a 4-month-old pup.

 Quote: jennifer n. hack

I can teach my Malinoises everything on a flat collar, but these are dogs that are extremely easy to train, not all the dogs I get are like that, some are large adults who have been pulling their whole life.

Do you use food and marker training at all? Missed that part.

I've met plenty of "large adults who have been pulling their whole life" who are very much motivated by food. Just because it's already an adult doesn't mean it can't learn to heel with marker training. In fact adults have better attention spans and remember things better than puppies so if anything marker training should be easier on an adult dog.

Or are you just saying that you, as a trainer, need to use a prong to train all dogs & puppies that aren't "extremely easy to train"?

Note: "Malinois" is already the plural form of the word - no need to add "es" to the end of it

With my dogs, yes I use food and marker training in the very beginning. I usually teach the dog a position or task, give release command, then treat/reward. Then as they get older, corrections come into play.

I can teach a dog to heel in 20 minutes, using a prong collar- I am not going to take weeks upon weeks to do treat training to get leash manners. I don't see any benefit to doing that, and my clients do not have weeks to spend on teaching heel.

With the majority of the dogs I train, No I don't use any treats, I don't do marker training. I use only praise, that is the only reward, I want the dog to work for the handler, not for toys or food! I use a method called compulsion training. It is a very good method, used by some world-class trainers, and it requires no treat bribes or toys. It is simple- the dog either performs or doesn't, it makes a choice, and it then receives either the benefits or the correction.

I physically manipulate dogs to teach them positions, which also teaches a dog that I can control it physically, very important. Then many repetitions.

I know it's Malinois, i don't know why I typed that, lol. But there's no way to tell if it's singular or plural?

 Quote: jennifer n. hack

With my dogs, yes I use food and marker training in the very beginning. I usually teach the dog a position or task, give release command, then treat/reward. ... With the majority of the dogs I train, No I don't use any treats, I don't do marker training. I use only praise, that is the only reward, I want the dog to work for the handler, not for toys or food! I use a method called compulsion training. It is a very good method, used by some world-class trainers, and it requires no treat bribes or toys. It is simple- the dog either performs or doesn't, it makes a choice, and it then receives either the benefits or the correction.

The benefits in the benefits or the correction are the lack of correction?

I'm old. I remember very clearly the days when compulsion was all.

It certainly was "used by some world-class trainers." It was used by pretty near everyone.

The benefit is praise or petting usually.

Yes, some world-class trainers use it today, but most people don't even understand the method or they don't have the skill needed to use it properly. At least with treat and click method anyone can use it and its harmless, requires no skill and easy to learn.

 Quote: jennifer n. hack

With my dogs, yes I use food and marker training. I usually teach the dog a position or task, give release command, then treat/reward. Then as they get older, corrections come into play.

Ok, thanks for clarifying. I do the same with my dogs.

 Quote:

I want the dog to work for the handler, not for toys or food!

I'm not saying that it's a good idea to have a dog who won't work unless there's toys or food to focus on (that's bribing).

However food and toys are excellent tools in training (just like a prong collar is a tool). A trained dog should do what you tell them to when you tell them to, yes, but there's no reason not to keep rewarding them throughout their lives. They're so much happier and more driven in the work if they get a high-value reward for performing well. Food & toys are usually much higher value than praise alone.

Some dogs are certainly very eager to please and they do seem to enjoy working for the handler. However if you have to rely on prongs and other forms of correction to achieve the obedience, the dog isn't working "for the handler". He's working to avoid the corrections, not because he wants to work.

Threatening is no better training than bribing. At least with bribing the dog isn't stressed and miserable.

 Quote:

I use a method called compulsion training. It is a very good method.

Is compulsion training effective? Sure, dogs quickly learn how to avoid the pain and discomfort that you inflict.

Is it a good method? I disagree. Dogs trained in compulsion show nowhere near the enthusiasm and drive in their work that motivationally trained dogs do. I prefer a happy working dog who wants to work, not one who goes through the motions because he's worried about what will happen to him if he doesn't listen.

 Quote:

I know it's Malinois, i don't know why I typed that, lol. But there's no way to tell if it's singular or plural?

Not by looking at the word itself.
The rest of the sentence will indicate whether it's singular or plural... well in French anyway, where verbs, pronouns, adjectives etc. all change in accordance to gender and number (masculine/feminine and singular/plural).

English grammar does leave out a lot of information in comparison... guess you just have to specify gender/number each time