Quote: Norman Epstein

Charlie that's a good beginning but regarding conformation, bringing back the palisade wall and long jump would do more for the healthy future of the GSD than any other thing I can think of. One, it would change the conformation of the breed that is getting larger with more bone and bigger heads to one that is smaller, less bone, squared up and because of that conformation a lot more agile and could work longer in more hostile conditions.

that touches on something i find interesting/alarming. it seems like the majority of the GSD ads that i have looked at over the last year all mention the dogs' large head and bone as a major selling point. it's the exact same problem we have in stafs, in that everyone seems to want a bigger boned, bigger headed animal at the expense of their actual atheleticism performance and endurance.

Kristin this, bigger is better syndrome is not only prevalent in the aforementioned breeds but in all working breeds. The reason is, that all working breeds, for the most part, are not bred for there intended function but for the market place. Unfortunately the show world of today now dictates the phenotype and genotype of most working breeds, therefore what wins and what sells is what is bred for. That is why the sooner your breed splits into show and working the better. Please understand I am not saying that working breeds should not be bred for the pet owner, they should as most of them end up as pets anyway. It is just, these bred for pets only, are in fact a sub-specie of that breed and should be recognized as such. FYI the definition of sub-specie is: under the appearance of. Norman

I know that we're preaching to the choir about the need for functionality about working dogs, but Norman again nails it perfectly in his last two posts - what he said should be the gospel of the working dog.

My hats off to you Norman, I wish we had some people with ideas like yours in the leadership of the SchH organizations.

 Quote: Norman Epstein

the sooner your breed splits into show and working the better.

Reading this, it's dead-on obvious, but I admit that I never before thought of it exactly like that.

Hi

The separation Show/Working Line comes "nearly" automatically in that working lines rarely mate to show lines. However, some show lines tend to "cross the border" in an attempt to bring a bit of life into their breed. In Europe the feud exists "Show vs. Working lines*. I knew a show line dog who made it to the Swiss Team in America at the WUSV a few years ago, but this is unusual.

I have a large "working line" dog with a huge head and a back that you could place a tray of coffee cups on without spilling them! He's very muscular and agile with very good hips and elbows. My husband has also a working line dog but he looks like the dogs Max Stephanitz portrayed, although his back isn't quite as straight as my dog's. He's the same height as mine but much lighter, and there are a lot of his sort around in Europe. They earn the name of the greyhounds in the working line.

However, size, big head, isn't always negative, although I agree the lighter variety is worth breeding for. My heavy (but muscular) dog is easier to motivate and totally communicative, whereas the lighter version is far more exact but, with less willingness to communicate.

It's not so easy to say which is better. The size of the dog doesn't determine the drive of the dog and each drive isn't always easy to channel into functionality.

Even though they are more or less separated in Germany, Mother Nature has been know to play some nasty tricks.

Someone I know once said "we should learn how to breed the perfect working dog handler". Methinks there is a lot of wisdom in this.

Gillian

 Quote: anton schuler

... The separation Show/Working Line comes "nearly" automatically in that working lines rarely mate to show lines.

Curtis Brown once said that as soon as a kennel club approves a breed, and a breed standard is published, breeders begin “improving” the breed with a new goal: to win at dog shows.

Is that what you mean by "automatically"?

I'm not quite with you there regards Curtis Brown. What I mean is that to keep up the "performance" of the working dog, no (can't vouch for this 100% obviously) working dog is mated to a show line dog. There is no reason for this, there are many working line breeders who produce litters with no show lines in their known pedigrees.

Gillian