VanCamp, I put civil in with all the others you mention and your point on definition is well taken but it is all on spec.

This topic will never find closure as the variance in descriptive terminology is to great.

You forgot the new catch word though, Handler Hard.

Jerry

Ok, Lets define the term for ease of conversation on this subject. I think we can debate the definition if people want, but without a common definition we can't really talk about the subject. Here is the term the way Ed uses it in describing protection work:

"Civil work

Civil work simply means that we are going to do helper work without any protective clothing or sleeves."

The most common method I have seen the term used is this:

The dog focuses on the man, not the equipment. The dog will focus and alert on a man that is not wearing equipment. The dog exhibits the desire for the man not just the equipment.

I have seen people describe this as a "drive", but I believe it is more of a trained relationship between the dog and the agitator. The way we train this starts at the very begining of aggitation. When the begining prey work is done, the agitator uses the dogs prey guarding behavior to focus on the man to protect the sack or tug. This is a prey based behavior, but it is directed at the unprotected man. The dog learns a couple of things in this process. One is that winnig the prey object doesn't end the game. The other is that the man becomes a prey object too. The dog is focused on the man when there is no equipment between the dog and the man.

Later, when training is moved to defense the civil work is continued in terms of defense. If the dog focuses on the equipment there are two things done. First is double sleeve work. If the dog wins the sleeve and drops focus on the man he is tapped to re-focus on the man and the second sleeve. Second, the dog wins the sleeve and drops focus on the man and is attacked with no protection. This one requires good coordination between the handler and the agitator so that the agitator doesn't take an unprotected bite. We also will do agitation with no equipment and then goes and gets a sleeve to allow the bite. At the very end of training the dog is put on a watch on an agitator in a suit, the dog is told to watch. the agitator approaches the dog in a friendly manner, if the dog doesn't alert on the man it is attacked and allowed to bite. Prior to this the dog is worked with an agitator that it has been told is ok and the dog shouldn't alert or bite without either a command from the handler or some direct action by the agitator. The end goal is for the dog to react when commanded no matter the action of the agitator, and not react when commanded unless the agitator takes direct action.

So to mke a short disscussion long, I don't really consider civil a drive. There is some drive interaction that may contribute to the ease in training, but I think civil is a seperate thing from a "drive" that can be trained.

Richard, you punk, why do you get to decide on a definition, I thought I just gave a good one?!?

Almost exactly the same as Ed's.

You're just trying to upstage me, I'm gonna get you next time. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Just kidding, nice post Richard. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

One comment, I thought we were talking about defining civil drive. Now that you've done that what's left to chat about?

BTW Jerry, hardness is a dog's capacity to forget unpleasant experiences during training and withstand correction. I'm sure you know that.

Handler hard is the same thing, but just specifically relating to corrections and pressure from the handler.

Now if you have a dog that is handler hard, civil, and rank then you can have a HUGE problem because if you challenge your dog, then he bites you because he doesn't respect your rank, and he bites you in the nut-sack because he is civil, AND he is handler hard (i.e. you try to correct him but he is hard enough to withstand the pain and pressure), you could very well be a dead dog trainer. Or at least one with a very high voice. How much fun would that be? lol <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Or you could be better off, because the dog isn't going to mind such a strong correction from you in the first place so it will not tick him off enought to bite your cherries. LOL

Dave,

For me there can be some degree of civilness in the dogs choice in the prescence of equipment. Some dogs that have a degree of civilness will take equipment over an easier person bite because they are trained to take the equipment. If there is no equipment they will work on the man. Some dogs will go for the man over the equipment if they can pull it off. So with the definition the way I use it there can be some degree involved, but I don't think that it relates to problems with the dog outside of training. During training a dog that has a high desire for the man can be a problem as they will go away from the equipment to bite the person. You can get around that by using a full suit to work the dog.

Richard... I'm totally with you on your description of the civil trait.

VanCamp...as usual, you are partially right. What is it that motivates the dog to want to bite a real person instead of equipment?

Also, who is Lilly?

Dave:

I think that was VanCamp's attempt at an insult.

Dave,

So do you see the dog being civil as a good thing or bad thing? Earlier in the thread you stated that you see a civil dog as a negative in PP and PSD work. I stand by my statement that it is a requirement for an effective dog.

I don't see where my own and Richard's definitions of civil drive are different in any way. I just attempted to keep to the simple definition without going into how or why. That is kinda my point, we should stick to the simplest terms and explain specific behavior to communicate exact meaning in dog behavior.

VamCamp:

I will never doubt you again.