Quote: Mary Roach

things that dogs are usually in need of correction for are bad pack behaviour, it seems. And it is natural to be corrected by the top dogs in a pack if you step out of line. But it should always be fair, and not overly harsh.
I dont know how postive reinforcment is going to teach a dog that certain behaviours are NOT acceptable, like aggression. And personally, I think alot of dogs will take advantage of the lack of clarity in an only positive reinforement approach.
I dont mind the theory but I think corrections have their place.

Good post Mary. I agree.

 Quote: benjamin colbert

I have two issues with this thread.

The first is how quick you are to denounce purely positive training.

Ben,
it's hardly surprising that you would have "issues" with this thread. You've become a broken record in this regard - I went through and reviewed your old posts and you've been arguing against the use of virtually any type of correct in many, many, threads.

I'm going to point out something that has been pointed out to you by many several posters in many older threads - this is a Working Dog forum, many of us here are working hard-core, hard drive dogs with behaviors that you have never encountered.
I'd also like to add that many of us regularly title our dogs and succeed using methods that you disapprove of.


Here's a statement from one of your old threads:

"Once again I learn new things from this board every day but I also see too much attributed to dominance before examining other possibilities and to many suggestions of e-collars and prong collars for dogs that in my opinion could be completely and reliably trained with out one."

I'm sorry, but I'm fairly sure that your "opinion" there isn't backed up by much experience with real world dog training.

And as a note, I've watched the author of the the bible of "purely positive" training for a week on the SchH field and I saw her give several leash corrections to her dog. They were not harsh corrections, but they were correction just the same.

 Quote: Benjamin Colbert

“...how quick you are to denounce purely positive training. Just because it doesn't work for you (or me) doesn't mean it doesn't work. ... It works, just not as quick as force methods and not with all dogs.”

Benjamin:
Respectfully, I too have not seen where anyone in this thread was “quick” to “denounce” OC (Operant Conditioning) methods. Although I gather the sentiment you may be sensing is experience that evidences the many drawbacks to using purely OC methods, which fail more times than not. I mean it’s a great system for training dolphin, but the canid mind works a little differently.

As far as appropriate corrections being a quicker system; damn-straight! Although your remark presupposes that one MUST spend inordinate amounts of time and effort, to achieve similar results. That is simply not the case.

I hear what you’re driving at, albeit there are sound reasons why strictly OC techniques are viewed as inferior to a balanced (correction) approach. And such has nothing to do with laziness, and everything concerning results.

 Quote: Benjamin Colbert

”I could easily train manners without corrections.”

Well then, it’s clear you’ve never worked a Malamute.

Benjamin

I am tiring of your diatribe. I use that word loosely.

Your lack of experience jumps out of dam near every post. You remind me of the old saying "opinions are like ass holes - everyone has one".

Check your PM's.


I am tired of people like yourself who are book worms and who always asks for studies of this or studies of that (like you have done on other threads)

In the dog world who is qualified to hold a study? You? Vet? Vets in a university? SELF PROCLAIMED DOG BEHAVIORISTS (which I think you fathom yourself)?

No one I have ever met in these groups knew a twit about dog training and pack behavior. You know why? Because they don't have experience with anything other than a pet or two and they learn from one another and not from experience in training and working dogs.

In 45 years of being involved with dogs (since I was 15) I have only met 2 or 3 Vets that knew something about dog training and they were involved in the dog sports. Now I am sure there are more 2 or 3 but not many more and these people don't do studies and PONTIFICATE - do you know why?

Because they know they are not qualified.

Now in terms of this thread on positive motivation. Our local Agility competitor is one of the top in the world - been on the world team a number of times. She is a positive trainer and I respect the dickens out of her - I love what she has taught me.

With this said she could never train some of the high drive dogs that we deal with in the disciplines we train these dogs. It's impossible to purely positively train a police service dog without using corrections. Its impossible to train almost every high drive dog in any of the biting sports without using corrections at some point in time.

And in closing - your comments in a previous thread about there not being any such thing as pack structure - well Benjamin - know where I think your head is? I won't say in an open forum.

But again check your PMS.

I don't get into these debates anymore. I used to starting out and every bit of info I learned I thought I had learned it all, but as they say, "the more you know, the more you know you don't know"

One thing I had read a while ago in the Stephen Lindsay collection, which I happen to find to be about the most complete, unbiased source of dog trainging info anywhere had this to say,

""properly understood, reward and punishment are morally neutral, the one being neither better nor worse thatn the other. Both outcomes serve equally vital functions in perfecting an animal's adaptation ot the social and physical environment. Lerning to respond and cope appropriately with the treats and trials of life is an important part of normal development for dogs... Although punishment is unpleasant, precisely what aspect makes it so beneficial and useful."

He also says about punishment, "not only is punishment often poorly misunderstood as a behavioral procedure, it is just as often bogged down in dire warnings of serious side effects and, more importantly, the false view that it does not work."

I like this one the best. " .... the pedulum has swung from a stubborn rliance on punishment and negative reinforcement to an equally unnatural extreme in which the use of punishment and negative reinforcement (in some quarters) is shunned to embrace a so-called "positive" approach to training and behavioral control. Extremem positions, whether based on good intention or not, are typically based on irrational beliefs and assumptions,- not scientific knowledge and experience. The adoption of an exclusive reliance on punishment or reward alone reflects a core of misunderstanding about how dog behavior is most effeciently modified."

I hope those statements stick with everyone. To me, everything in life is about balance, absolutely everything. What "balance" is isn't the same to everyone or every dog

Eric,
that is some of the best use of meaningful quotes that I've seen in a long time, man you should be saluted!!

Thanks Will, They are great quotes aren't they? I wish I had the resume to say they were my own words, but I can't. I do know that I will never forget them.

 Quote: Eric Read

Thanks Will, They are great quotes aren't they? I wish I had the resume to say they were my own words, but I can't. I do know that I will never forget them.

I sure do agree about the books, too. It isn't often that a book series is worth what this one is worth:
http://www.leerburg.com/952b.htm

But boy, is it ever. Volume 3 is on my bed-table; it's great.

Well, I think the important thing is that we try to live by those quotes - we owe our dogs that.

And one of the things that I love about this forum is that I know that most of the trainers here love and respect their dogs and want the best outcome for them, hence we put in the time and effort to train our dogs to have useful and meaningful lives.

 Quote: Will Rambeau

And one of the things that I love about this forum is that I know that most of the trainers here love and respect their dogs and want the best outcome for them, hence we put in the time and effort to train our dogs to have useful and meaningful lives.

This is what turns me off about most of the other boards. I don't want to compare training and health notes with handlers who don't have that love and respect and willingness to spend the time and effort. I don't discriminate between well-trained companions, service dogs, therapy dogs, sport, professional, hobby -- it's the time with the dog, the effort put into the training, and, as Will put it, the opportunity for our dogs to have useful and meaningful (and healthy) lives.