I respectfully ask where are the insults and belittling comments? The majority of the remarks speak to handler error. What is insulting about this? How can you fix something that is not acknowledged as something to be fixed? Not to infer the OP did not fix her issue...she did. The issue comes from saying she was faultless in the dogs behavior. In any relationship it takes two, dog/handler relationships are no different. The OP took a stand to remove 1/2 of her problem (an easy and effective fix for her)or she could have opted to work on both halfs, she chose the first...nothing wrong with that. As Cindy stated this dog might be better off with a handler that has a more experienced eye with dog behavior. Still OK!!!!

 Quote: Carol Boche

 Quote: Mary Roach

Frankly, I think that if someone has to be looking directly at the dog all the time to monitor it, they probably arent very experienced.

This statement is what makes the difference between pet owners and real working dog owners. No offense intended to pet owners at all.


If you have never had a high drive, sharp dog in training, then you would not know how severe the consequences would be if you were not paying attention and watching the dog and not trying to do something else while the dog was out.

This thread did get personal since the OP came for advice and then rejected or disagreed with any advice or opinions that were given.

I am excusing my inexperienced self out of this thread now.....

I think this is a really important point that Carol made and cannot be overstated. If you have a high drive dog,especially those of us involved with any gripping sports or pp, you must always be paying 100% attention to your dog, not only for the safety of the general public, but for the sake of your dog.

 Quote: cindy easton rhodes

Dogs are rarely "unpredictable". They almost always give signals,(unless they have a brain tumor or something like that) some are very subtle but to the perceptive and those experienced in dog body language they are there and very clear.

Ed and I get emails every day from owners whose dogs are supposedly unpredictable and they bite "out of the blue" and "without warning" . The real issue is that the dog may have shown something very subtle like a momentary change in breathing or stiffening the body for a second. The average person isn't well versed in dog language and misses it, then the dog is labeled as unpredictable or unstable.

I would place a money bet that this dog showed a sign, and because no one was paying attention the sign went unheeded.

Yes, Yes and Yes!

I wholeheartedly agree with Cindy.

Katie

 Quote: Valerie Tietz-Kelly

I respectfully ask where are the insults and belittling comments? The majority of the remarks speak to handler error. What is insulting about this? How can you fix something that is not acknowledged as something to be fixed? Not to infer the OP did not fix her issue...she did. The issue comes from saying she was faultless in the dogs behavior. In any relationship it takes two, dog/handler relationships are no different. The OP took a stand to remove 1/2 of her problem (an easy and effective fix for her)or she could have opted to work on both halfs, she chose the first...nothing wrong with that. As Cindy stated this dog might be better off with a handler that has a more experienced eye with dog behavior. Still OK!!!!

An EASY fix? Are you kidding me. I just lost my DOG you obviously dont know how that can ruin a person. And then you all have the nerve to treat me like shit. I made a very responsible decision by giving him back to the breeder. I was actually advised to put him down. And I am not the one who first said he was unstable. An expert whom I truly respect and look up to told me this. He wasnt just throwing the word around, he knows what he's talking about.

I never said I was perfect, but in my situation I was NOT at fault. This dog came to me like a complete physcho, and I worked through ALOT of issues with him. I was watching him (I wasnt staring at him) but I was watching (like I always am) and there were no signs. I notice his signs all the time (tail goes down, head down, hackles occasionally, his movement, panting, whine/whimper) and I IMMEDIATELY remove him from the situation.

When he lunged at a child that WAS COMPLETELY my fault. I saw him tense up but could not keep walking as my friend abruptly stopped in front of me and we were in a tight area. I knew it was coming so if he did bite the child it would have been my fault for not removing him immediately. But all I could do was tighten up on the line, and position myself between the child and him. I am very quick on my toes, if I wouldnt have pulled Rade back when he just jumped up at Sarah he would have really taken a chunck out of her (luckily he was at an angle and did NOT get a good bite becuase I pulled back quickly).

Regardless of my inexperience, biting unprovoked is unacceptable, working dog or not.

Aleida
Check your Pm's for an Offical Mod notice.


Will Rambeau
Moderator

What a thread...

Dog owners never want to be wrong. Advice givers always want to be heard, and both parties always come with their own perspectives and experiences with the assumption that other people will think the same way.

At the end of the day, this stuff happens all the time. Everybody has their own views on what is considered a "stable" dog, or what is expected from a dog entirely. This goes for people with experience too.

I understand the trainer who evaluated the dog is respected by the OP, and he may well be a great trainer, but that doesn't mean his views on what makes for a good or stable dog will line up with the next trainer's.

I know people who will consider a dog junk if he doesn't display traits that other people would perhaps consider to be an unstable liability of a dog. I also know people who think that if their 4 year old can't pull the dogs tail and bug the hell out of him without the dog getting aggressive then the dog is unstable. Quite a contrast between the two. Who is right?? I'd say both of them are. One person has one goal for his dogs, the other has another goal for his dogs.

What gets on my nerves is when people with a dog that is different to what they want out of a dog considering the dog weak or unstable, either through lack of experience, or simply differing views in what makes for a strong or stable dog.

What I'm reading here is that the OP ended up with a dog who is too much dog for her to want to live with and inexperienced enough to not be able to fix the problem.

Dogs like this end up in shelters every day. If I read correctly, this dog was returned to the breeder. I believe that's a far better deal than most dogs get.

Not all dog/owner relationships work out, and while I am a big advocate of fixing a situation rather than rehoming a dog, sometimes it doesn't happen that way. There are enough dogs in the world that don't behave this way and not everyone is willing to put in the amount of time that some of us obsessive dog people would Not saying that as a bad thing, but when it comes to pets, people have lives, and families, and they want to have a dog that fits in with that lifestyle, not turn their entire life upside down to accomodate a dog.

Ofcourse, everybody wants Rin Tin Tin. Apparently he set the breed standard.

Would like to point out, my post was intended as mostly neutral, I'm not saying anyone on this thread said something wrong or anything like that. I'm just offering a different way to look at it. Dogs placed with the wrong owners are never a good combination. Especially when it involves a dog that has already bitten. Better back to the breeder than at a kill shelter or euthanized.

 Quote: aleida cebreco

 Quote: valerie tietz-kelly

I respectfully ask where are the insults and belittling comments? The majority of the remarks speak to handler error. What is insulting about this? How can you fix something that is not acknowledged as something to be fixed? Not to infer the OP did not fix her issue...she did. The issue comes from saying she was faultless in the dogs behavior. In any relationship it takes two, dog/handler relationships are no different. The OP took a stand to remove 1/2 of her problem (an easy and effective fix for her)or she could have opted to work on both halfs, she chose the first...nothing wrong with that. As Cindy stated this dog might be better off with a handler that has a more experienced eye with dog behavior. Still OK!!!!

An EASY fix? Are you kidding me. I just lost my DOG you obviously dont know how that can ruin a person. And then you all have the nerve to treat me like shit. I made a very responsible decision by giving him back to the breeder. I was actually advised to put him down. And I am not the one who first said he was unstable. An expert whom I truly respect and look up to told me this. He wasnt just throwing the word around, he knows what he's talking about.

I never said I was perfect, but in my situation I was NOT at fault. This dog came to me like a complete physcho, and I worked through ALOT of issues with him. I was watching him (I wasnt staring at him) but I was watching (like I always am) and there were no signs. I notice his signs all the time (tail goes down, head down, hackles occasionally, his movement, panting, whine/whimper) and I IMMEDIATELY remove him from the situation.

When he lunged at a child that WAS COMPLETELY my fault. I saw him tense up but could not keep walking as my friend abruptly stopped in front of me and we were in a tight area. I knew it was coming so if he did bite the child it would have been my fault for not removing him immediately. But all I could do was tighten up on the line, and position myself between the child and him. I am very quick on my toes, if I wouldnt have pulled Rade back when he just jumped up at Sarah he would have really taken a chunck out of her (luckily he was at an angle and did NOT get a good bite becuase I pulled back quickly).

Regardless of my inexperience, biting unprovoked is unacceptable, working dog or not.

Let me clarrify, easy as compared to learning to handle a "high drive, sharp" dog. Some folks work their whole lives to be able to do this and arn't as successful as others. This was not meant to be insulting and it is not treating you badly...IMO you just feel badly. And actually I know exactly how you feel...and when I looked into myself I opted for #2, and my life style changed and there is not a day that goes by that I feel happy I made that decision. Your decision is very effective, the dog cannot cause you any more issues...thats a fact, not a judgement. I wish you nothing but the best in the future and I hope I have clarrified my views, as Mike said that is all they are.

Good responce Mike and Valarie.

I will preface this with a disclaimer... this is MY opinion.

I see several references that giving the dog back to the breeder was the "responsible" thing. While I do agree it is responsible on the part of the breeder, I don't feel it is the responsible thing on the part of the buyer. It relieves the buyer of the fact that they committed to the dogs life and well being. If the dog is truely unstable, the dog would need to be euthanized. By shipping the problem back to the breeder, you are only passing the buck on what you had a part in. Breeders are responsible for genetics, you are responsible for training and controlling your dog.

This being said, I have taken back 2 dogs now, and I am learning to trust my gut instincts when I don't feel it is the right match or just have that feeling.

To the OP, Sorry you feel like you are being bashed, and I know it has to be hard to send a dog back, but just absorb some of what is being said and re-evaluate your life and lifestyle. Maybe working dogs are not for you. Maybe having a dog that can hang out without needing your attention is more what you need. There are plenty of dogs out there like that.

Mistakes happen. If you learn from them, it is OK. If not... well...