KurzeHaare,

If you want a PP dog then it is important that the dog be able to function with people. If it can't trust the dog, then every time people come over you are going to have to crate the dog or put it up when ever people show up. The dog isn't going to do much good from a crate, kennel, or another room.

The way I socialize is usually starts with the introducing the puppy to visitors in the house. Once the dog has completed the vaccinations I take them out a lot. Petsmart, the part, training, anyplace that I can take the dog to. Not everybody pets the dog, but the dog needs to learn that people aren't going to hurt them. If I tell the puppy to, it needs to accept anybody. It will still learn to be vigilant when people are there and to defend if some creates a problem.

Many of the PP dogs we deal with are certified as therapy dogs. They can interact with anybody, no problems at all. They will also make a bite if required even on the person that has just been playing with them. In addition we train them to accept someone thay have just bitten if they are told to. Mistakes happen, and if you have to call a dog out the dog needs to be able to accept the person.

Another thing to keep in mind is that it is easier to train things in than to take them out. By this I mean that if the dog is sound and able to accept people it is fairly easy to put a level of suspicion in to the dog. It is also easy to teach the dog to defend the house or yard. If the dog is overly suspicious, or is afraid of people, it is going to be very difficult to take that back out and teach the dog to accept people. Most of the dogs that have problems in dealing with people, and many of the dogs that have fear problems, are dogs that have been poorly socialized. Usually this is blamed on poor "nerves", but I often wonder how many would have been just fine if the dog had recieved proper socialization.

I am also with Sch3FH2 when it comes to the social level of the dog. I like to have the dog demonstrate the dominant type of seeking out attention. Again it is easier to put a level of suspicion in or to tell the dog to do lay down, than to try and train in a level of socialness.

Richard,

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Several months ago, I was talking with a trainer during a class which included bite-work for PP people amongst others. He pretty much said what you're saying. But at the time, I was taking much of what Ed says as gospel, i.e....

I remember 15 or 20 years ago when we did not know anything about protection work. We would work a dog in bite work and then afterwards allow the dog to apprach the helper, be petted and treated like an old friend - HOW UTTERLY STUPID we were. In trying to prove how safe this work and our dogs were - we were actually confusing the dogs.

I was actually giving the guy (and a couple others) a semi-hard time about it. After leaving they were probably wondering who that random a-hole was. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I'm not neccesarily saying anything for or against any opinion at this point, as I have no personal substantiation on which to base an opinion. But now I see there are indeed legitimate points of contention.

However, intuitivly, I would say your approach seems much more attractive and compatible with a crowded suburban lifestyle....assuming I'm understanding Ed correctly.

 Quote:

If you want a PP dog then it is important that the dog be able to function with people. If it can't trust the dog, then every time people come over you are going to have to crate the dog or put it up when ever people show up.

Richard, I won't even pretend to the level of knowledge of others on the board, but I am attempting to learn quickly since our dog is getting a mix of sch/PP training!

What I've decided re the socialization issue is that just as humans must learn to "read" a dog, so the dog learns to "read" a human...the difference between cues from a friendly stranger and a bad guy. But since humans are incrediably diverse and tend to be very inconsistant in behaviors, it must be very hard on a dog to learn that...

Ie, a neighbor who has known our dog since puppy, is always heartly welcomed by the now 90+ lb gsd: lots of tail wagging, wiggling, rubbing, licking his hands etc. But not long ago, this same neighbor came up the driveway and while our dog was racing toward him, all friendly and anxious for a petting, the neighbor suddenly stood stock still, put on a stern face, and raised his arms shoulder high in a threatening manner, all the while staring intently at the dog. (Standing at the head of the drive, I almost went into shock!) But the dog stopped in mid-stride, ears forward, and veared his direct-line approach. No barking, no growling, just staring and definately alerting; I'm sure he was very confused at that display. It only lasted a few seconds, but I don't know what would have happened if this neighbor (who is not at all dog-savvy) had continued this stupid play acting; fortunately he did not, and as soon as he brought down his arms, relaxed his posture and knelt, the dog once again ran toward him tail wagging. To this day this neighbor likes to boast how he "scared" our big bad dog. (We've never told him about the PP training...)

I don't know much about PP training yet, but I think this fool was lucky that our normally sharp dog didn't just freak out! Now what would a fully trained PP dog have done in that case do you think?

Barb:
Spraying my shoes with a clorox solution also provided an edge in disease prevention.

This is overkill, but that's your right <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

This is a difficult, often heated, discussion. It comes down to the philosophy you take about the dogs. I think it also depends on your background.

For a Sport Dog and a PSD I agree whole heartedly. In these 2 instances the purpose of the dog is not dependant on being a funcional animal with people it may have to bite. The sport dog is going to only bite an agitator on a field in a trial. The dog understands this clearly. If you talk to many of the people involved with Sport, they will say that their dogs aren't protection dogs. Dogs that are trained to do both "real" work and a Sport concurrently tend to score lower.

With a PSD the people the dog bites are going to be BAD Guy's and the dog isn't going to be expected to be friendly with that person later. Properly deployed there will be few occasions that the dog will be called off. If the dog is sent it is expected to bite. Once in a while the dog may need to be called off, but not often.

For both these dogs you are never going to want the dog to be friendly with a person that (s)he just bit. Ed also recomends that PSD's be kenneled when they aren't working. The really high scoring trainers in Sport do the same thing. For the most part, if the dog is out of the kennel it is working. In both cases Agitators are often very aggressive with the dogs to increase intensity.

For a PP dog I think it is going to depend on several factors. First is your lifestyle. If your expectation is that the dog is going to be with you much of the time, and interacting with guests, you need a dog that understands that if you accept the person, they are OK. If you expect the dog to out with you all the time you need to teach the dog how to do that. It isn't as important if when people come over you are going to send the dog off to a corner to down and not interact with the guests.

Next, If you are primarily looking at the dog as an "offensive" part of the over all defense plan. By that I mean that the expectation is that the dog is going to function more like a PSD than just as primarily a companion. I use my dog as more of a "defensive" part of the over all plan. The dog is a companion first, it is trained to react to situations. It defends at the door, it reacts to an attack from a person (even if the person is a friend). I want the dog to react to the behavior of the person, not the person. As the third option I expect the dog to go out on command and make a bite. I still want the dog to do it, but it is not the expectation I have for most of the bites my dog may have to make. The primary function of my dog is to make noise to scare off someone that may attempt to break in.

If you expect the dog to be more aloof and directed to be so, then keeping the dog away from the agitator will be a good thing.

I have some advantages in this area. First, we use multiple agitators (up to 5). So we are not just working on one person. Second it depends on a philosophy about the training. If the goal with having the dog interact with the agitator is to "show off how safe they are", it isn't going to work. If the goal is to teach the dog that it is the behavior, not the person, that triggers a bite then you need to teach the dog the difference. If the person is friendly and behaves the dog isn't going to do anything (unless commanded). If the person, no matter who, attacks the dog is to take them. This training is much more defensive in nature than other training styles.

The other thing I am a huge believer in is that the dog has to out well. I believe that the failure to out will cause more problems than the bite. Outs demonstrate control. The fastest thing to lose you a suit in a dog bite case is if the dog is seen as out of control. It won't always save your butt, but it is a better place to be in. I have heard some sport competitors say that they only want there dogs to out 80% of the time. I can't have that. If I call the dog off it has to call off immediatly. If I tell the dog to out after a bite it has to release now. I have had friends start to play "grab ..." with me or my wife and have had to call a dog off. Accidents and mistakes happen. The dog can't hold a grudge.

I have my family come and visit. They live out of state and my only see the dogs once every 2-3 years. Often I have to work while they are here. I have to be able to trust my dogs with them while I am gone to work. With the way my dogs are trained I can.

Dogma,

It would depend on how the dog was trained. With mine that type of behavior would get a "bark and Hold". If the dog was trained that staring is a threat it may take the person.

In reality what the dog does is up to the handler. So in this case the person shouldn't be bit, because you would call it off.

Thank you Richard.
You confirmed the type of training this dog is getting: learning to "read" a persons behavior as to "normal" or "not normal". We work on that a lot.

I'm no dog training expert, but I do have five kids, and spend a great deal of my life in the company of hoards of small children.

Under the circumstances you describe, interaction between kids and pup rapidly degenerates into harassment. The unmitigated excitment of the climate- on the part of little folks and little dogs- positions everyone to engage in the worst possible behavior. The tiniest person can make a big old happy puppy squeal in pain... kids grab lips and ears and TWIST! Not a great introduction to kids... and don't count on parents for help. They are often worse than useless.

Unless you are Sargeant Mom and used to managing kids, I'd strategically socialize in guaranteed positive environments, planned in advance with families-with-a-clue.

Rich, I think we must have been raised reading the same books. Reacting to the threat not the person works for us and the out is tne biggie. I`ve had a big rottie in full flight off the ground and droped him like a rock with the out. The gardener who was walking towards me swinging the bush knife at the time was pretty thankfull.
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