Quote: norman epstein

I agree with your above. But my concern, as recited in my post, was once the market demands in numbers, these working breeds that require only a small part of there function in order to be successful, breeders will begin selecting and then breeding for those limited abilities, that were made available by there original function. Sort of like breeding just for showing. Norman

I am just going to throw out an idea to consider - is not "breeding for a small part of their function" exactly what is/has been done when breeding GSDs (for example) for protection? I mean, if we are going to knock the lab person who does bitework with their lab and might breed it since labs were not developed with that in mind, shouldn't we take a hard look at focusing on bitework temperament when breeding GSDs for protection work?

Yes, I acknowledge that at least with the GSD example, protection work was/is a function of the breed whereas it is not with a lab. However, I don't see a lot of schutzhund/PPD people discussing how they have tested their breeding stock on their herding skills. I mean if we are not going to solely focus on one trait.... I am not completely up on my GSD history but I do believe that herding was one of the original functions of the breed. If I recall there were discussions on this board about malis or GSDs who would take down a sheep and need of e-collars to go on stock etc. Not trying to stir up trouble, and this is an off the cuff post, I guess I just see a tad of a double standard going on here.

Of course, I am not advocating starting a new line of biting labs, I just see it from a different perspective as someone who does Schutzhund with ACDs. Needless to say, bitework was not in the founders of the ACD's mind when the breed was originated but I don't think it is killing anyone or the breed for someone to do bitework with them. After all, mine also do many other sports, including herding - without maiming stock ,do conformation (I know tar and feather me folks) and are health tested. And yes, I intend to breed one of these ACDs that does bitework. At the end of the day, I just consider it a well rounded dog. However, yes, I do acknowledge that the mouth on an ACD can be considerably harder than the mouth of a lab

Again, not trying to start up trouble. I am just posting a thought that occurred to me when reading the messages in this thread. All in all, I have found this a fascinating thread!

Ingrid I don't think you are starting trouble but you are not aware of what traits it takes to pass a schutzhund working title. First it takes biddability, biddability is not needed for a dog to jump off of a dock. Schutzhund takes excellent nerve. It doesn't take excellent nerve to jump off of a dock. It takes an excellent work ethic to excel in schutzhund it doesn't for a dog to jump off of a dock. it takes courage and correct temperament. It is good to remember that protection is just one phase in schutzhund, there is also tracking and obedience. I think you get my point.

For example if I took a GSD that was vetted by the sport and then only selected him because he was very good in the long bite and began breeding him to other GSD's that excelled in the long bite without regard to the other necessary character traits necessary for schutzhund and started a new sport called "The Long bite championship" and began only breeding those dogs, would the dog that resulted in this selection be in fact a GSD just because it was very good in the long bite. Would those dogs be worthy of being called a GSD the most used service dog in the world today, I think not. It is good to remember, for the most part, all working GSD's are vetted by the sport of schutzhund. Norman

 Quote: norman epstein

It takes an excellent work ethic to excel in schutzhund it doesn't for a dog to jump off of a dock. it takes courage and correct temperament. It is good to remember that protection is just one phase in schutzhund, there is also tracking and obedience. I think you get my point.

A lot of the labs that I have seen down here are used extensively for hunting. I have seen more work ethic and OB work in a properly trained hunting lab lying in wait for a command while it is pouring rain out than in many of the police dogs out there. Tracking is also bred into them as a breed for hunting. So the only thing that is not bred into this breed is the protection aspect. I can understand how when a breed is being used in a field of work outside of the norm there will be a good amount of doubt whether or not the dog can perform, but I think it's also good to keep an open mind about it. If Schutzhund was limited only to GSD in the past, there would be a lot of dogs out there never "intended" for the purpose out of a job now.

Cameron please read my reply again as I was not comparing a working Lab bred because of having all of the traits assigned to it, with a working GSD vetted by schutzhund. I was comparing, for the sake of argument, a Lab that has been bred only for its ability to just jump off of a dock, to a GSD that had been vetted by schutzhund, the breed specific test for the GSD and the end results of each.

I am not GSD expert but if I was approached by a bear in the wild I would rather have a Hunting Lab then a Shutzhund GSD.

 Quote: norman epstein

Ingrid I don't think you are starting trouble but you are not aware of what traits it takes to pass a schutzhund working title. First it takes biddability, biddability is not needed for a dog to jump off of a dock. Schutzhund takes excellent nerve. It doesn't take excellent nerve to jump off of a dock. It takes an excellent work ethic to excel in schutzhund it doesn't for a dog to jump off of a dock. it takes courage and correct temperament. It is good to remember that protection is just one phase in schutzhund, there is also tracking and obedience. I think you get my point.

For example if I took a GSD that was vetted by the sport and then only selected him because he was very good in the long bite and began breeding him to other GSD's that excelled in the long bite without regard to the other necessary character traits necessary for schutzhund and started a new sport called "The Long bite championship" and began only breeding those dogs, would the dog that resulted in this selection be in fact a GSD just because it was very good in the long bite. Would those dogs be worthy of being called a GSD the most used service dog in the world today, I think not. It is good to remember, for the most part, all working GSD's are vetted by the sport of schutzhund. Norman

I think you under-estimate Ingrid Norman. Not to argue Norman but I'm just curious. What about breeds that the original purpose or job is no longer needed or practical. How would you go about preserving them?

 Quote: norman epstein

Ingrid I don't think you are starting trouble but you are not aware of what traits it takes to pass a schutzhund working title. First it takes biddability, biddability is not needed for a dog to jump off of a dock. Schutzhund takes excellent nerve. It doesn't take excellent nerve to jump off of a dock. It takes an excellent work ethic to excel in schutzhund it doesn't for a dog to jump off of a dock. it takes courage and correct temperament. It is good to remember that protection is just one phase in schutzhund, there is also tracking and obedience. I think you get my point.

For example if I took a GSD that was vetted by the sport and then only selected him because he was very good in the long bite and began breeding him to other GSD's that excelled in the long bite without regard to the other necessary character traits necessary for schutzhund and started a new sport called "The Long bite championship" and began only breeding those dogs, would the dog that resulted in this selection be in fact a GSD just because it was very good in the long bite. Would those dogs be worthy of being called a GSD the most used service dog in the world today, I think not. It is good to remember, for the most part, all working GSD's are vetted by the sport of schutzhund. Norman

Hi Norman!

Actually I do know what it takes to pass a Schutzhund working title Notwithstanding that, my entire point is that breeding for SchH, is breeding for only selective traits of what the breed's original functions were. You can have all the biddability, drive, etc in the world but just because a dog has a 3 means that it has what it takes to do a HGH or heck even an instinct test. I have seen SchH titled dogs excel at herding and I have seen others maim and attempt to kill the livestock.

All I am saying is that if we are going to knock other breeds for only breeding for selective traits (ie retrieving etc), let's look in our own backyard as well. Max von Stephanitz once said, "There is no doubt in my mind that the genuine and noblest vocation for the shepherd dog is tending flocks."

I guess I would assume from that comment that he thought herding was pretty darn important in the breed. Of course I am not intending to criticize people that breed for the protection (and by that I mean protection sports, K9, PPD etc) aspects of the breed without putting their dogs on stock. All I am saying is that this is not a black and white issue and that the very thing that is being argued against in other breeds in this thread could be found in the GSD (in my opinion).

People breed for specific traits based on how they interpret the standard and what sports they are involved in. I am not about to knock that when I can't honestly say that I have not chosen dogs based on selective traits and likely intend to focus on those traits/sports when I breed. It does not matter if the trait/sport is multi-faceted, I am still going to likely be dropping the ball in another area of the breed. That is what breeders do in my mind, make tough decisions on what they can and cannot live with in what they produce.

 Quote: Jeff Cambeis

I am not GSD expert but if I was approached by a bear in the wild I would rather have a Hunting Lab then a Shutzhund GSD.

And if was approached by a thug in a dark alley I'd rather have a working GSD than a lab...

Ingrid a very good post. That said, I look at schutzhund as an undergraduate degree that identifies dogs that can then go on to there chosen field. It is said the GSD is the second best at everything and the reason for that is IMO schutzhund. It is true that most of the schutzhund dogs won't make good tenders however the same traits that are needed for sheep tending or detection work or leading the blind are required for schutzhund i.e., work ethic, nerve, temperament, conformation and courage. Stephanitz saw the need for a more versatile dog early on and bred towards that goal and schutzhund was his way to identify the most useful and used dog in our history. The reason that the GSD can be used in so many venues, is it has the necessary phenotype and genotype that allows for that flexibility. To reduce Stephanitz's creation to jumping off of a dock, then select and breed just for that one function is not honoring his efforts and that versatility.

 Quote: enrique muniz

 Quote: Jeff Cambeis

I am not GSD expert but if I was approached by a bear in the wild I would rather have a Hunting Lab then a Shutzhund GSD.

And if was approached by a thug in a dark alley I'd rather have a working GSD than a lab...

Exactly my point. Different work for different dogs. To say one is more valuable than the other IMHO is ignorant.