Quote: jeff cambeis

Personally I more concerned about the statistics of dog on dog incidents at dog parks then actually going to one.
With out data I personally find it difficult to form an opinion based only on personal experince. Personal experience is generally subjective and can easily be influenced by the opinions, and experiences of others.
A good example relative to this forum would be a person who happens get information about feeding raw a diet from persons who's dog choked on a bone or some other negative event.
That does not mean raw food it bad, it simply means something bad happened. The big picture of the benefit cost of feeding raw verse not feeding raw greatly favors raw.

Jeff, I understand your point here, but just like dogs choking on chicken bones, I don't think there is a "database" of logged incidences out there for dog park aggression. To make matters worse, there are many instances of aggression that go unnoticed, or diffuse themselves without intervention - so careless owners wouldn't even see it. I don't know how many times I've heard the owner of a dominant, aggressive dog say "oh, he just likes to play rough..." when in actuality, the dog is bullying every other dog in the park and the only reason a fight hasn't broken out is that (luckily) all the other dogs are submissively avoiding one!! All it takes is two dogs of this disposition to create a very dangerous situation - and, also speaking from experience, most people who go to dog parks have NO clue how to safely break up a dog fight... lets just say things have the potential to get messy...

What it comes down to in terms of taking a suggestion is really researching both the opinions AND the people GIVING the opinions, and only making your decision based on what you find to be the most knowledgeable advice based on experience. I wouldn't take my vet's advice about raw feeding because I know he doesn't know anything about it other than the "risks", and I wouldn't take any old person's opinion about dog parks unless I thought them to be educated about dog behavior (which most people on this forum are - and that's an understatement!).

I'm not even close to an expert at dog behavior (but I've come a LOOOONG way since raising my big dominant male pup) but even I can tell you, from experience, that dog parks can be very dangerous places, and at the very least, they can foster pretty unruly behavior and breakdown hard earned training. For someone who actually cares about their dog's training, has put a lot of time and energy into working with their dog, and has raised a stable companion, encounters with random dogs of unknown temperment can quite simply set up even perfectly behaved dogs for failure. Pack behavior expresses itself at dog parks like no where else in the dog's environment and WILL cause reactions that, while natural and even "correct" in dog speak, could be dangerous or just not acceptable to a keen handler. What frustrates me is how little of all this the people who actually take their dogs to dog parks actually witness...

Now, in my opinion, there are relatively safe ways to allow your dog to play with other neighborhood dogs, but one must be responsible and watchful about it. Introductions must be done correctly, playmates assessed and approved (or not) and play with only LIMITED individuals at a time must be heavily supervised. I would put this under the header of "small play-dates" vs. a proper dog park... the dogs know each other, have been proven compatible, and the owners know enough to pay attention to the slightest behavioral changes - this includes everything from teasing, bullying and aggression to distress, fear and even injury... the point is, there's a LOT out there to pay attention to, and most people just don't. Unless you can arrange such structured and safe play, why risk the wide open, complete and utter unknown, that carries with it the potential for serious harm?

~Natalya

*All of the above is only my very personal, and probably highly subjective, but at least somewhat informed and educated, opinion...

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

 Quote: Jeff Cambeis

I have never been to dog park but I imagine if done properly it could be a decent place to train with distractions.

But how? How can it ever be anything but a place where people who are strangers to you and whose training know-how is completely unknown to you come with their equally strange-to-you dogs under no control?

BINGO!!!

Any so called dog parks I've ever seen are just like the wild west. No rules and out of control, cripes that is just the owners let alone the dogs!

How many times have you heard an owner say about his/her dog

 Quote:

It's ok my dog is friendly.

Before it tore into your dog or who came in all threatening with teeth bared and hackles up?

 Quote:

Oh I'm sorry he has never done that before!

Famous last words ...

Natalya,
I am thinking more along the lines of giving groups like PETA something constructive to do, instead of running around naked.

I am sure accurate data is not available. That is why I was suggesting a possible method and reason for collection. I believe deeply in personal responsibility and liberty. If people are making a misinformed choice to participate in something unsafe I think it is possibly in the best interest provide people with more appropriate information.
For example if park X has had 7 aggressive events last week 2 dog on human and 5 dog on dog. It may be in the interest of everyone involved to post that information.
The ultimate goal is to better inform dog owners of unnecessary risks and dangers parks harbor.
I get asked about research topics all the time. The topics are generally molecular or biology based. I imagine different departments of educational institutions might be interested in this type of research.
You brought up an excellent point. Not just anyone can can collect this data. One would apparently need some degree of training in interpreting aggressive behavior.

I never meant to describe dogs parks as good thing. I think the opposite. I just have no basis for the formation of my opinion other than some experiences and opinions expressed over the Internet, not matter how competent I might believe those people be.

 Quote: Jeff Cambeis

I am thinking more along the lines of giving groups like PETA something constructive to do, instead of running around naked.

You are assuming that PETA actually desires to do something that will benefit domestic animals. It seems they would rather have all domestic animals (pets and livestock) killed than be controlled by a person.
Picture animals running amok and people confined so that they can have no interaction with any animals, PETA nirvana.

Then go out and meet the people and dogs in the dog park for your self.

Most people here know better.

 Quote: Michele McAtee

What if...like I'm thinking, there were serious minded individuals with training efforts in mind who were able to use an area like the proposal I'm thinking about making...again, *if* training in the proposed area is taking place, and there are gains...what if it could be a trend in *responsible* dog parks...???

But then it's a training club.

A public facility, rules and regs notwithstanding, means a place where people who are strangers to you and dogs who are strangers to you will be. Unless you mean a leash-required park, which isn't what the thread is about (I don't think), these strangers will have unknown control over their dogs (and how many people do we know with excellent voice control over their dogs?) and will have unfettered access to our dogs.

I have no reason for my dogs to frolic with unknown dogs. If they were all dogs I knew and trusted, then it wouldn't be a public facility.

All JMO, and I know that there are folks who regularly enjoy off-leash parks with their dogs.

But I personally don't care at all what the statistics are. For me, it's choosing to put my dogs at risk for no benefit. If I thought that there was some benefit to them from meeting strange dogs en masse, then I might want to weigh the risk v. the benefit.

But I don't. JMO.

 Quote: connie sutherland

 Quote: michele mcatee

What if...like I'm thinking, there were serious minded individuals with training efforts in mind who were able to use an area like the proposal I'm thinking about making...again, *if* training in the proposed area is taking place, and there are gains...what if it could be a trend in *responsible* dog parks...???

But then it's a training club.

Yes. In that light, but what if...(fasten seatbelts for my idealist thinking...) dog parks could somehow begin to be equated with *responsible training*? And "going to the dog park" can become a way, for folks not affiliated with clubs, training, etc, to learn the true/real way to have a healthy happy existance with a well trained dog??? Undertaking, huh?

 Quote: Debbie Bruce

 Quote: Jeff Cambeis

I am thinking more along the lines of giving groups like PETA something constructive to do, instead of running around naked.

You are assuming that PETA actually desires to do something that will benefit domestic animals. It seems they would rather have all domestic animals (pets and livestock) killed than be controlled by a person.
Picture animals running amok and people confined so that they can have no interaction with any animals, PETA nirvana.

Excellent point = )

We have dog parks here too. They are flat treeless lots full of poop and piss and flies. Usually a ton of dogs too, way too many dogs for the size of the lot. The overwhelming majority of owners seem to usually stand in a big clot gossiping, which is the REAL reason they go to the dog park. The last thing most of them are even remotely concerned with is what the dogs are doing.