I posted this in the other discussion about the Sieger Show. I thought it also appropriate for this thread. Please excuse the cut and paste.

Greetings!

I see the 2008 USA Sieger Show fiasco has found its way here to you. I occasionally visit this forum, but have not registered, until last night.

I see, by the postings on this thread, that you all seem to see the error that has been made for several years. The UScA has rules for the sieger show, and they just have not seen the need to follow those rules. This year was NOT the first year this has happened, it has been an ongoing issue. Everyone has complained, moaned and groaned, but no one really thought to do anything about it. "let the show folks have their fun." Now, this year things have changed. A brave man, who exhibited, video taped the event. Ah, now undeniable PROOF positive that the rules are not being followed.

The event officials, have shown themselves to be a judas to the german shepherd dog. They did not follow or enforce the rules. By doing this, dogs that SHOULD NOT have been given a declaration of Pronounced and Out, were allowed to advance to the stand for exam, and then the ring. If, the rules had been followed, and enforced, the line up for VA and V would have been very different. We might acutally have had dogs who didn't attempt to avoid the stick hit by jumping off the sleeve, placed in positions of Honor as Excellent Select.

We all know that there are more issues of concern with the EB and other officals of USA. This situation, just happens to come with visual proof positive. Now add to that a membership who sees that the rules, of any USA event, no matter the event should be followed and now we have an avenue for change.

The Petition, as mentioned above, is only step one in provoking change within the organization. This really isn't about Show Lines VS Working Lines, this is an issue of the RULES and the rules not being followed, okay they were completely ignored. Who knows maybe if we can actually get the organization to FOLLOW the RULES, we could actually see a change a change for the better in the dogs that are presented at the sieger show.

I shall be very clear, I love a dog that can work, and I have German Showline. I am the first to stand up and complain about the lack of character, energy, training, and temperament in a dog. I hate that the breed is divided, and that organizations such as USA, continue to promote the division by continually accepting less than mediocre performance tests, and handing out PRONOUNCED, like they are tictacs.

Yes, the videos were (ya know I have run out of adjectives, just pick one)...however, you can say there are a majority of dogs out there very similar to what was witnessed, but do NOT be fooled into thinking they are all like that. There are some very fine show line dogs out there, that are not treated or trained like show line dogs. They are trained and worked like a german shepherd dog should be. Sadly, the owners, handler, trainers of these dogs, have stopped going to the sieger shows, because they know, that no matter how well their dog performs in the performance test, the pronounced means nothing anymore. VA does not mean excellent select anymore either. Me? I am happy with my SG rated German Show line, who doesn't come off the sleeve when hit, stepped on, or when the threat of that happening is there. Plus, she has pretty good obedience and does heel to the attack out of the blind.

I would like to personally thank everyone who sees that the petition is NOT about show vs working, but that it is about the RULES, and how the organization does not follow its own rules. For those of you who have signed, I thank you! For those of you who haven't signed yet, I know you will. This is a clear cut situation of what is right and what has been wrong. Please add your name to the petition and remember your membership number. If at this time you cannot remember your membership number, sign anyway, you can always email me the # when you find it. I will be adding the numbers to the petition print out before it is sent to the EB.

Susan and Mike,

Thank you for the links. The site is working now Mike.

Oh holy cow. All I wanted was a good GSD for the family, and I went with a working line dog because someone I trust told me I'd have a better chance of getting a healthy dog that way. I saw his sire doing a little work when we purchased Hans, and that impressed me, but seeing these videos ... holy cow.

Funny, but now I'm starting to appreciate why Hans has such a hard time keeping his butt on the ground when I tell him to "speak", it's the enthusiasm of the breed

Bob, I think the helpers know what they will be working with and they're not there to embarrass anyone. I don't really think they are considering whether or not they will be invited back or not. I'm not disputing anything about the rules,judging,or placements only that I don't think the helpers had any ulterior motives for not running everyones dogs off.

Sorry but those dogs really suck. At fault are judges, breeders, and handlers for promoting weak dogs.

It´s just to accept that the show and workingdogbreeders have different goals and criteria when selecting their breedingpairs, and let each group do their own thing, what else can be done if colour and a certain type is what matters most for the majority of showdog-breeders. The split between the two groups have been going on for long now, it´s juts the way it is.

The officers of the organization are at fault. They do not enforce the rules. Why? for fear that entries from the large kennels will not enter large numbers of dogs. It all comes down to money. That is how sad this has become.

Think about it, someone has to tell the helpers not to put too much pressure on the dog, we don't want to upset the people with all the entries. So, we are at a crossroads where the membership has to push the officials to do the right thing. Doing this for money hasn't helped the breed, AT ALL. Now, let's just follow the rules for a few years and see how the entries improve!

USA enforces all of the other rules, okay most of them. However, they have chosen over a signigicant period of time to IGNORE the Rules of the Sieger Show. This year's presentation for the performance test is a good accounting of what the organization has allowed the dog to become. It is disgusting, and not a way to promote the dog the organization says it is guardian over.

I am not arguing with you, I am agreeing with you. So, now that we have that out of the way, how many of you with membership to USA have signed the petition? It doesn't cost anything to sign. It takes seriously, just a minute to do it. This is a good avenue for us at this time to voice our disgust, displeasure, and have our voice heard. Plus, if the officials of USA do not have integrity, at least we can show that the membership has some!

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/EnforcetheRules/

 Quote: susan tuck

I'm a little hot right now. Anyone who wishes not to participate in fixing the problem is free to cancel/non-renew their membership in either UScA or GSDCA-WDA. The thing is I am sure I won't be seeing any of you at a UScA or WDA schutzhund trial with your dogs either, right? I mean denouncing the organizations that put on the overwhelming majority of schutzhund trials in this country then participating in any of those trials sure would be hypocritical. So good luck finding a lot of DVG trials to compete at. For myself, I prefer to stick it out. I'd rather be part of the solution than part of the problem.

I have been a member of UScA prior to it even having a Seiger or even any shows. Back when it ws all about the Schutzhund Title, before mandatory B's and before padded sticks and back when courage hardness and fighting instinct were rated on a numerical scale and no one wanted to breed a dog without a 10.
I still compete, and I still train for that approach in the trials. A bit old fashioned, sure. I am not fooled into thinking that old is better, but surely the newest trend is awful for the working dog. I still trial in UScA. I also am proud to say that I do my best to show a dog that displays power and control on the field. The dogs in the Seiger video do nothing for me as a GSD enthusiast. I will work a malinois before I accept the show lines as they stand as anything other than a joke. I cannot understand why the show folks persist on a German style show when they have the AKC here to play in. In Germany they do not. So the working people have now started their own program in Germany with the SV 2000.
I am an angry member of UScA, I am a long time member, and I refuse to attend the Seiger show. I would prefer that we go back to the ealier days....in fact int he earlier days we had a bigger share of the working dog enthusiast pie. Today UScA has dwindling membership....can you see why?

Kevin I come from the old days too, have always had working lines and I'm angry too. However in the old days schutzhund was basically the only game in the USA for a long time so of course we had a bigger piece of the pie as far as working dogs are concerned. As far as schutzhund is concerned right now UScA STILL is the organization that puts on the way overwhelming majority of trials in this country. The answer is not going to be found by ignoring the problem of the seiger show but by addressing it head on.

Kevin wrote in part:

I cannot understand why the show folks persist on a German style show when they have the AKC here to play in. In Germany they do not

Even though the dogs in the video were bad they are so much better than the AKC style, and it pains me to use the name, GSD. But the reason our show folks persist in ours, is because they wouldn't stand a chance of winning in theirs. Why? Because for all intent and purpose the two are in fact separate breeds, with two different phenotypes, called by the same name.

The bottom line is that there are two separate breeds of dogs, or at least two types; so what? This is not just here in America, but pretty much anywhere you go to look for a GSD. Most of the dogs, the top show lines, are from Germany or puppies from German Imports. Really if some folks want to prance their dogs around and do something that looks like protection work then so be it. The Germans that were tired of it, started a new club that is just for the working folks and a venue for them to breed their dogs or they just compete in DVG in Germany. The fact is in this country I would say that the majority of the membership in USA are show line fanciers. DVG is for dog sport trials only, but it does not seem to be pushing forward in the USA,, in fact the numbers are declining as far as I know.

There is no way I see an organization going to chase away the majority of the membership. Even if a 1000 folks got on the petition, how much good will it really do? Sure their voices will be heard and there will be some symbolic value but will it cause any real change? There are so many incidents of issues arising in all of the organizations from people getting elected not on their merits of being able to do the right thing, but on a buddy system, with yes men calling people in charge "BOSS" so to only get in ahead of a guy that is more able. It is widespread that alot of the more knowledgable folks in the sport discourage new comers, or do not give them a few minutes of thier time. You have claims of people running over tracks, corrupt judging and we never hear a word about it again.

The Director of judges for USA has been so for a number of years. There has to be a reason why, it certainly cannot be because of the stellar job he has done at training his own dog, or judging, this being proved at the USA Nationals and the Sieger show. So really what is the answer. A number of years ago people were jumping ship and going to WDA, which now has its own Sieger Show. Is it really any different there? I do not think so. The majority of their membership are show line folks who are happy with the work that their dogs do.

If we look at it, every year the same faces are in Nationals and a few new ones. If the Nationals were judged like this it would be a disgrace. But this is not the case. For the most part, the people who compete in one venue are a different breed, just like their dogs. The other issue is that while there is a whole bunch of talk on the net and elsewhere I would say alot of the people that are making comments have never even titled a dog, have never titled a dog in the last decade and never really did anything anyway, sit behind the keyboard and think they are training dogs, or make claims to have trained dogs back when I was 3 years old. A decent majority of folks who are complaining do not actively train schutzhund, breed working dogs, but just pretend and get all heated up on a keyboard.. This is just as sad. At least the show folks are out there on the field training or doing something not just pretending or sitting at home trashing the working dogs on a computer.. I can tell you this Schutzhund, is hard work. Plain and simple. Alot of folks do not want to do it, do not have the time to do it so they do the show stuff. I do think that what went on is a slap in the face to the folks that train and compete in trials, then see dogs like what is on you tube win. But this is nothing new.

Really if someone wanted to do something, a new organization would be formed and we would hand our membership cards over. But asking them to step up the standard in the Sieger Show, come on, that is like asking the grocery store only to sell vegetables and no meat. They would crumble. The financial gain from these show lines will hault any effort to make a lasting change. I just do not see USA or any other organization making a whole bunch of the membership mad. This will not happen. I know of people first hand that were die-hard German Shepherd people, held office for over 14 yrs in a Region and really just because of garbage like this quit and do not have really anything to do with Schutzhund or the GSD. Really a guy like this should have been embraced, not thrown away, but because he was a working dog guy, the majority could careless about him, or his integrity. Noone when corruption was brought up stood next to him that could do something about it. You can sign all the petitions you want, and I would bet that in one year from now, we can watch on you tube another fine example of the GSD at the Sieger Show. When organizations officers for the last 10 yrs are writing articles about the "Golden Middle" it did not take a geniuses to see which direction USA was going. If you made to much noise, you were beat-down like a potted plant and left with no water. It is a also a conformation club. This is clear.

I think that it is time for the GSD community to accept that there are two breeds of the GSD, make whatever venue that is available to us to trial in true to the working dog, let others trot around and do thier thing and move on. All of the people that are typing about dog training, come out from behind your computer and do it, since there is such a strong interest in the working dog and make the numbers of working dog folks truly seen and heard and grow. Make the clubs active again. The German system of breeding is not what makes great dogs, it is the folks that are breeding making intelligent breeding's that do. This is a proved fact all over. There are people that follow the German standard and breed excellent working dogs, there is also people that are not and are producing some very nice animals.

With all of the screaming and outrage this will dwindle under the rug that must be a few stories high by now. The only way that change can come is with new leadership, new people that are approachable in office and want to better the sport and the breed.

Has USA taken an official stance on what had transpired at the show? If so what is it, or where can it be found to read? I think the time has come for a new outlook on the breeding of the GSD and the breeding practices. If people want show lines then that is their right. Let them play in that area. It is clear that there is a strong interest in the show dogs. This cannot be denied. Then working folks can do thier thing. USA has some fine working dogs folks that have alot to offer. Many have competed with HOT dogs and have bred them too.