Quote: Howard Knauf

Hi Geoff,

Even though Will has stated his personal feeling on this, the information specialist I spoke to yesterday informed me that anxiety service dogs are not recognized by the ADA as legitimate sevice animals. Even the liberal ADA has seen fit to draw a vague line in the sand.

Being as you are disabled I can see your point of view. But even you can see the potential for abuse here. Thanks for letting us see it from your situation though.

I can just picture the Fetz dog with a cute vest on. Oops! I forgot! He doesn't have to wear one!

Howard

I'm sure everybody has a view on what a disability is, as well. No matter if it is physical or mental. So I'll add some more personal accounts just for everyone to see what a possible situation could be for a disabled person trying to lead a normal life as possible. Especially where a Service dog could be of assistance (to me at least).

I'm mobility impaired from a couple of issues the big ones ... Asthma, Arthritis. On a good day I can walk miles, other days 20 feet is a issue. Then without warning my joints can (and have) lock and put me in a tailspin while I'm at the grocery store because of the hard floors. I've literally have had to use a grocery cart for support or crawl to get back to the car.

I have an accessable parking permit. Yet every day I get people who challenge me because I'm a youngish strapping 45 year old lad. There is a lot of unseen circumstance, but yet people just assume you are a faker S.O.B. little old lady parking spot thief .. Drives me a little batty really. So it would be the same if someone had a service dog too from my experience. The ugly stigma would carry on. I've gotten real good at telling people to piss off btw. Being disabled and having peoples assumptions that expect you to prove it to them. Has turned me into a crusty curmudgeon who has a kick draw on the middle finger!

I know that there is a push up here to legislate into law rules for service dogs as well as proper testing and certification of said animals for particular disabilities.

I tried to get proper training and real certification for my Malinois to be an assistance dog for me. Mostly for the mobility issues but the hurdles trying to get the specialized training from the agencies that certify make it really counterproductive.

All the agencies up here that train service dogs always want you to take one of their own dogs and the wait time can be upwards of 2 years or more. (I need help now) Then they will only certify a dog that they have trained even though the dog may pass the certification process. To train your own service dog is not unheard of. But then it is the certification of said animal that is the area that is hard to be done since the people who certify are the same ones who train. They won't certify a dog they haven't trained, up here at least.

I brought my dog (Bite Trained to a French Ring II level but yet Social Malinois) today to a public building and walked right into the Attorney Generals office for Victim Assistance office and no one challenged me. I brought her in more because it is crazee hot up here and I didn't want to leave her in the car. But I digress.

So say even If I had a card and a vest by that Service Dogs of America outfit going into any public building or a place of business and I trained her myself in a few basic things like support or picking up small things I dropped. By the time the management figures it out it is not a certified government document. My dog picked up that can of peas I dropped which I can't bend to get, and hopefully I'll have had my dinner or watched my movie without having to worry about falling down the stairs, or fall getting up out of a chair. Like I said I need help now not later. Life is to short to worry about what other able bodied people take for granted. I hope that my experience puts another positive spin on the discussion.

 Quote: steve strom

Are you going to put out the extra 10 bucks for the "ask to pet me, I'm friendly patch" LOL.

She is friendly .. Just not to a pakweker, decoy, homme d'attaque or whatever you like to call them. Actually she is friendly with them but will just bite from whatever her training scenario of the day dictates. All about the control my friend!

Hey Jeff aside from actual service dogs, I thought you were kidding about that particular organisation.

 Quote: Geoff Empey

Life is to short to worry about what other able bodied people take for granted.

Very well said, Geoff! Unfortunately, there isn't really any way to punish the abusers without fist doubting all claims, even legitimate ones.


I hope this isn't too OT, but; could a PPD be considered a Service Dog? I mean, If I had a PPD I took *everywhere* with me (in the car, etc) and it was very well trained/well mannered, what would the limits be? Say I went on a hike with the dog, but had to stop at the grocery store. It's illegal to leave the dog in the car (In AZ, anyway, with good reason!) and yet you can't bring them in the store....

Not encouraging the system abuse, I'm just wondering out loud.

 Quote: steve strom

Hey Jeff aside from actual service dogs, I thought you were kidding about that particular organisation.

Steen I think that organization is bogus and a ripoff anyways. I put it out there to open more discussion on the subject that's all.

You can buy a service dog cape or vest from Leerburg http://www.leerburg.com/servicevests.htm for a lot less money than $249 and it would open the same doors for you.

But then there is the whole ethical thing to consider. Which some people throw by the wayside as we all know.

Geoff I am not against dogs that really assist people with real disabilities. I am sure there are those out there who have anxiety where the dog really does help them overcome some of their problems but it is still enabling the issues. I'm all for solving and curing problems not maintaining them on 'livable' conditions.

I also have a disability that at times makes functioning normally almost impossible. I have a heart condition that means I will have days where getting out of bed makes me pant and sweat like I just ran 5 miles. Walking to the kitchen or bathroom is not only exhausting but it I can black out and lose my vision. I generally know when I am having a bad day from the time I wake up, but I will have ok and even good times on bad days with black outs sprinkled around randomly. There are times where nothing happens for 6 months or more, and times when every week I have a bad day or two for months on end. Medication cannot help as nobody really knows what exactly is going on. I had the option of getting a pacemaker when I was 19 and declined because it was only a 50% chance it would help with anything.

My dog Cajun would alert to something, some change in me before I felt the little tingle that told me you are going to pass out in 5-10 seconds time. Now I could just not do anything those days, and it sometimes lasts a week at a time, or I could go and have the dog that gives me another 5-10 seconds so I can sit down or pull over if I'm driving. Which I don't normally do for those curious.

This condition kept me from getting my drivers license until I was 20 years old. I consider it legitimate to have a dog on my bad days but during my good times on those bad days when I do go and get something done I get stared at and people whisper and glare.

I am pretty sensitive about the whole service dog issues because I've dealt with physical issues and "mental/emotional" issues that entitle someone to a dog. I am all for someone having legitimate issues where the dog actually helps and is not a danger/is trained/well mannered etc. I only have issues with people that really don't have problems that claim issues in order to bring ill tempered FiFi into a restaurant with them.

Ok rant over

Hi Angela,

Yes, Animal control was given the witness statements and we were assured that the guy would be cited for the aggressive animal and out of date shots. AC works pretty close with us and some are former cops. They know the deal and assess fines accordingly.

Geoff,

The SDA website you linked was interesting to say the least. I tried to find it yesterday but was unable to. This guy said he had a card from them. I see that they offer a vest to those that pay their money to register the dogs. This guy I dealt with told me that he couldn't afford a 50 dollar vest so he didn't have one for the dog.

Interesting to note that SDA provides a vest as part of the package you pay for. So....which lie did he tell? He either never had a vest because his dog wasn't registered with the SDA, or he has a vest but elects not to use it. No matter how you look at it, he's a liar. Knowing this, it appears he was looking for a payday as I originally suspected yesterday.

I have no doubt the guy is disabled in some way. To use that disability, and the vagueness in the law for a monetary gain just sickens me.

Howard

Megan,

I have a pic of me standing with a Rotty named Falco who is a hearing assistance and PP dog. The dog was trained by Teus Tisjling in the Netherlands. That government commissioned Teus to train these dogs and he reportedly is one of only two people there licensed to do so.

In that country it apparently is legal. I would think it would be the same here as long as there is ultimate control. After all, non-disabled citizens are allowed to have them so I would think that disabled persons could as well.

Howard

Howard,

I believe you may have misunderstood. I mean if you have a PPD, and say said dog is CGC certified; if you have to stop at say, the grocery store, drug store, etc, but can't leave him in the car. (It's 110 here today, i wouldn't leave a dog in the car for 5 minutes!)

It isn't always practical to make a 2nd trip (I live 30 miles from the nearest grocery store), and it isn't like going into a restaraunt for a meal, or browsing through a department store. Seems people could get permits or such for this situation.

I personally would have my dogs CGC certified, and pay whatever permit fee I had to if i could bring them along as 'companion' dogs. I love bringing Sasha to work with me, and it's nice to be able to get her used to 'ignoring people', but it does limit the errands I can run after work.

Edited by Megan Berry (06/12/2008 05:52 PM)
Edit reason: addition

 Quote: Howard Knauf

Hi Angela,
Yes, Animal control was given the witness statements and we were assured that the guy would be cited for the aggressive animal and out of date shots. AC works pretty close with us and some are former cops. They know the deal and assess fines accordingly.

Well that is the way it should be any ways .. Nail him to the wall if needed.

 Quote: Howard Knauf

The SDA website you linked was interesting to say the least. I tried to find it yesterday but was unable to. This guy said he had a card from them. I see that they offer a vest to those that pay their money to register the dogs. This guy I dealt with told me that he couldn't afford a 50 dollar vest so he didn't have one for the dog.

Interesting to note that SDA provides a vest as part of the package you pay for. So....which lie did he tell? He either never had a vest because his dog wasn't registered with the SDA, or he has a vest but elects not to use it. No matter how you look at it, he's a liar. Knowing this, it appears he was looking for a payday as I originally suspected yesterday.

I have no doubt the guy is disabled in some way. To use that disability, and the vagueness in the law for a monetary gain just sickens me.

This is true the guy maybe disabled in some way. But to abuse it for monetary gain is sickening for sure. Hopefully he does try to pull off some scam and with the info you have gleaned from this thread can turn the tables on him and set some sort of precedent in your state or city. Just so people like him will not ruin it for others who are legit.