Quote: Lynne Barrows

Wow. I can't wrap my head around why the dog would go into the crate willingly, but then become so nasty only when the door is closed...

I think the only way for anyone to really get to the bottom of that is to see it in person.
I'd really have to see the timing and the nature of the aggression to know for sure.

 Quote: alyssa myracle

Show me a wolf pack, where the alpha wolf makes the lower wolves "earn" their food.
Show me a wolf pack, where the alpha wolf "ignores" aggressive overtures from lower members of the pack.

The alpha wolf doesn't do either of these things- he leaves the other wolves alone to eat after he has eaten his fill. He doesn't stand over them, or make them go around him to eat.

The alpha wolf doesn't "ignore" aggressive behavior from other wolves.
Aggression towards the alpha wolf, always gets the other wolves something- an ass kicking.

Show me a wolf pack where the alpha wolf has the other wolves sit and down out of motion on command. Show me a wolf pack where the alpha wolf walks the other wolves around on a leash. You and I are not wolves or dogs, we are people. In reality, if this dogs behavior is what it sounds like it would have already been killed by it's own pack. Since we are trying to avoid that, trying other things might be a good idea, no?

You can focus on your ass kicking. I'll worry about communicating effectively, consistently and fairly with my dog. This article is a good read... http://www.loucastle.com/dominance.htm Check it out.

 Quote: John J. Miller

Show me a wolf pack where the alpha wolf has the other wolves sit and down out of motion on command. Show me a wolf pack where the alpha wolf walks the other wolves around on a leash.

We're not talking about obedience. We're talking about pack structure. While the way we train obedience is based on an unnatural structure to a dog- the way we enfore pack structure is based ENTIRELY on pack structure.

 Quote: John J. Miller

In reality, if this dogs behavior is what it sounds like it would have already been killed by it's own pack.

We are in total agreement there.

I followed the link you provided, and read some of the articles.
Good stuff, for the most part.

But, the article you linked to doesn't deal with dogs that are already aggressive. It's addressing how to establish pack structure and trust in a new dog- not in a dog that has already begun to demonstrate aggressive/dominant behavior.

Also, on the same site, Mr. Castle does say,

"I believe that the relationship between the dog and handler should be one of mutual trust and respect. This is the relationship that exists in the wild within a dog pack and it doesn't happen by the alpha dog kicking anyone's ass, especially not on a regular basis. A dog may need it once in a while but only because of an all out attack on the handler."

His recommendations about hand feeding dogs, are also based on establishing a bond with a new dog, not addressing dogs that have become aggressive. In fact, NOTHING on his site was about addressing dogs that have already become dominant and handler aggressive. It's too late to read the million-and-one ways we can prevent the behavior. We have to fix it now that it's begun.

I was really intrigued by his advice for dogs that are game chasers. He recommends a very lengthy training program to break a dog of the habit. Why not just have your dog properly obedience trained? If your dog went through the distraction/correction phase of training, your dog should recall no matter what. That feels to me like perhaps there are gaps in his philosophy.

As with most training resources, bits and pieces are good and other bits and pieces may not be. I like a lot of what Lou has to say, and some of it I don't like. I think the dominance article is a good one.

It is a good article. It has a lot of sound advice for establishing pack structure.

What it lacks, is advice for how to deal with a dog that has become dominant and aggressive, and has bitten the handler. The closest he does come, is to admit that an ass kicking would be appropriate in that situation.

That's the situation we've got. I'm not saying that stringing the dog up is magically going to fix everything- it's an effort on all fronts, and that one very minor part of it. 99% of the advice you gave, is fantastic. I just disagree strongly with the food advice.

I'll buy that its a good way to establish a bond with the dog- but I'd wager that it's only going to aggrevate problems, in this specific situation.

On his dog-dog aggression page, he apparently doesn't have much esteem for Ed, either. He also seems to be one of those avoidance e-collar trainers. I am not 100% sure what that is, but people on this board seem to be vehemently against it.

Edit: I also would be curious to know why the OP's dog seems to get vicious AFTER he's in his crate, but only when she first puts him in, not when she comes home and approaches the crate when he's already in it.

It looks like to members have just decided to bash each other on this tread. So let me just say it’s unfortunate.

Karen can you tell us a little more about his body language when he is growling in his crate does he just growl or does it look like he is actively trying to guard the crate. In other words does he look like he is going to attack or that you just bothered him. Also does start before or as you close the door.

How does he take corrections I mean is he soft or hard dog? Does he ever take dominant postures to you or does he ever cower to you or anyone else.

Have you tried correcting him for this behavior in his crate, and yes I correct my dog in the crate. If I didn’t I would still be hearing the screaming. I don’t know if its ok to correct them in their crate but Ed said he puts anti bark collars on them in their crates and kennels I feel that is a correction just not by me.

I think you are doing a great job and be strong we know you can do it.

 Quote: alyssa myracle

What it lacks, is advice for how to deal with a dog that has become dominant and aggressive, and has bitten the handler. The closest he does come, is to admit that an ass kicking would be appropriate in that situation.

That's the situation we've got. I'm not saying that stringing the dog up is magically going to fix everything- it's an effort on all fronts, and that one very minor part of it. 99% of the advice you gave, is fantastic. I just disagree strongly with the food advice.

Not all handler aggression is an all out attack that deserves an ass kicking, but we are diving in very deep here. I, for one handle a very strong dog physically and mentally. He is not overly handler aggressive, but put in the right situation will bite me. If I try to train from a place of frustration or I'm not fair to him with high level compulsion while being the slightest bit inconsistent with my expectations we will have a problem. BUT, this only exhibits itself on a field, not during everyday life. What the OP is dealing with is completely "out there"! If what is being described is actually happening something is very wrong with this dogs wiring.

 Quote: Michael Haddon

It looks like to members have just decided to bash each other on this tread. So let me just say it’s

On the contrary, we are debating one minute part of everything we are suggesting. Alyssa has not gotten personal, and neither have I. In fact, in her last post she said she aggreed with everything but the food part of what I said. She obviously handles strong civil dogs, and I think we all can learn from constructive debate. I know I can.

I would not, however, correct a dog in it's crate. A bark collar works because it's impersonal.

This is a very unique situation that none of us may have the answer to since there may not be one. Kudos to the OP for all the work being put in. You deserve a lot of credit.