 Re: Dominance vs. pack structure.
[Re: Maisha Butler ]
#205074 - 08/09/2008 08:15 AM |
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what about dogs like bart??(always bringing up the bart dog, lol).
he has NEVER challenged me. never been the least bit "dominant" to me(or any other human for that matter...). when we do ob, he wants to please me.
enter other dogs....
he is a nightmare....won't sit right away, i have to all but force him into a down around strange dogs...he listens with general commands, as in "lets go this way, come, off, leave it..." but have him to a sit or down, nope. he'll do it, but with as much "temper tantrum" throwing as possible.
so is there a whole nother group of dogs who do not try to achieve "dominance" around humans, but will not allow another dog to be over them???
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Re: Dominance vs. pack structure.
[Re: Jennifer Marshal ]
#205076 - 08/09/2008 09:24 AM |
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IMO, there is dominant behavior, and there is dominance/dominant temperament/rank drive.
Dominant behavior being from lack of leadership.
Dominance/dominant temperament/rank drive being genetic and not something to take lightly.
So, a dog that is not genetically hardwired to be a dominant dog can still exhibit dominant behaviors and be dominant when faced with lack of leadership in a pack.
Most issues I see come from a dog running the show, but the dog is not truly a dominant animal. A dominant dog that is that way through inherited traits does not mix well into the average home. Lack of leadership or poor leadership with a dog like this will get someone seriously injured. I Have worked with a few, very few, truly dominant dogs. One had to be put down because a suitable home could not be found and I could not afford to properly contain him for the rest of his life.
Ok. Back to dominant behavior(from lack of leadership) a dog that is not genetically dominant can still put up quite a fight and give someone a hard time. This is kind of where rank drive comes in, for me. I know there is discussion regarding the use of "Drive" to describe every trait a dog has, but IMO rank drive is one of the valid ways to describe the behavior. The dog is driven to establish and maintain rank. As with any other drive this can vary from practically non existent to high, with most dogs falling in the low to mid range.
Anyhow. I will stop rambling.
No no don't stop rambling Jenn makes perfect sense!
I totally agree most negative dominance type traits are created by poor owner/handler skills and people get the 2 things mixed up constantly. Dominance vs owner/handler created. The dog will fill that hole that the owner/handler creates unwittingly.
To me dominance is not a dog that does a slow down or would come up the leash from a correction those are other training issues. True dominance is the dog that will posture and force themselves upon you or another dog. My dog will not tolerate other dogs doing the humping thing or posturing by laying their heads across her neck. So she is probably pretty dominant from that point of view. She gets right up in arms about that especially if another female is in the picture. From what I see male/male female/female is always a recipe for dominance disaster. Where male/female neutered or not always seems to be a gentler meeting.
Yet with me and my family or my training director or other experienced handlers she is very biddable and handler sensitive. It's a neat combination to see in action. Now with experience I can read the dog a lot better and see all these traits unfold and act accordingly.
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Re: Dominance vs. pack structure.
[Re: Maisha Butler ]
#205079 - 08/09/2008 09:48 AM |
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What a great thread! For novice trainers like me and the average pet owners this thread is a wealth of knowledge. This may sound like a strange question but in each litter of puppies is there a dominant puppy or do truly dominant dogs come once in a blue moon? Also is being the alpha and being dominant one in the same or is there a difference?
It is a great thread, I agree! There is definitely a pecking order among litters of puppies, but the one that regularly finds himself (or herself) at 'the top of the pile' may not necessarily be a dominant dog. I like to see litters with fairly consistent temperaments throughout; bold, driven, interested and engaged. Pups like these, confident with a median rank drive could become "alfa" or pack leader in the wrong hands, but still not be dominant dogs. Once in a while I've seen one that is especially pushy or intense, but I still haven't had a truly dominant dog and wouldn't want one. I would think it a rare occurrence.
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Re: Dominance vs. pack structure.
[Re: Jennifer Marshal ]
#205080 - 08/09/2008 09:49 AM |
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What I am trying to say is that most dogs fall into the category of displaying moderate dominant behaviors as most dogs are not genetically high in rank drive. This is in direct comparrison to the dogs that are dominant/have high rank drive displaying the full range of dominant behaviors.
Could the drive for rank in the handler contribute to the problem? If a dog is at a mid to high level in rank drive and the owner is not an assertive or take charge individual by nature will the the owner be able to fix the rank issue even when they establish a solid plan of leadership?
For instance, I could look at someone and think; wow! that dog is dominant; even though the handler is doing everything right and is the picture of a good leader the dog is still challenging. Meanwhile the dog is reading the handler and is not getting the assured authority behind the behaviors the handler is displaying thus it continues to take charge. Does this ever happen? And how difficult is it to recognize?
BTW Jen; sorry, you're too young for a new brain try again in 20 years 
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Re: Dominance vs. pack structure.
[Re: Mike J Schoonbrood ]
#205087 - 08/09/2008 10:11 AM |
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there are people who seek these traits out specifically, breed for these traits specifically, and I know, and have been bitten by, a number of police dogs that are on the upper end of extreme.
I think I am missing something. What does a dog with these traits bring to the plate that makes them an asset to a handler? It might be really obvious but I am missing it.
Sorry to the op if this is a hijack but after reading the descriptions of the "truly dominant dogs"; I am curious because they sound "crazy"
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Re: Dominance vs. pack structure.
[Re: Sheila Buckley ]
#205104 - 08/09/2008 02:58 PM |
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I think I am missing something. What does a dog with these traits bring to the plate that makes them an asset to a handler? It might be really obvious but I am missing it.
I think that they require and are preferred by a certain type of handler. Most folks would take a pass on a truly dominant dog, I would imagine.
I like (and many like) a bold dog with an opinion. My favorites are my big, pushy males because they are a challenge but in a way that's interesting and fun. These guys are what is often referred to as "dominant" though they aren't really so in the truest sense of the word. They just may be more assertive than some handlers, and much quicker to exploit their natural, opportunistic tendencies. (Fortunately, I too have a teenager, and so am well equipped here:-)
I think of a truly dominant dog as the sort of character that is always looking for the opportunity to prove to you that he outranks you. They aren't a dog that wants to work for you, though some could 'make' them. They don't merely disrespect you, they actively look for ways to get the better of you and it tends to be an ongoing thing. They don't just think they have the upper hand with other dogs, they KNOW they have the upper hand with you. I haven't known any dogs like this, but a local trainer had a Rottie with this type of temperament. She loved him and managed him, but he didn't sound like a dog I would be interested in.
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Re: Dominance vs. pack structure.
[Re: Sheila Buckley ]
#205105 - 08/09/2008 03:14 PM |
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there are people who seek these traits out specifically, breed for these traits specifically, and I know, and have been bitten by, a number of police dogs that are on the upper end of extreme.
I think I am missing something. What does a dog with these traits bring to the plate that makes them an asset to a handler? It might be really obvious but I am missing it.
Sorry to the op if this is a hijack but after reading the descriptions of the "truly dominant dogs"; I am curious because they sound "crazy"
These dogs that Mike is describing are socially aggressive not just dominant ..
This is taken from workingdogs.com ... http://www.workingdogs.com/dom1.htm
Social aggression is the dog's desire to establish pack hierarchy (alpha/leader). It is not reactive aggression (defense/self-preservation) and, therefore, it does not have the potential disadvantage of flight behavior. Since social aggression has no flight counterpart, the dog does not perform under the same level of stress as in reactive aggression. This type of dog also generally expresses itself in a very dominant manner. Social aggression is almost exclusively a male characteristic. It can be the determining factor in a protection dog successfully facing a life threatening situation (i.e., police dog, personal protection dog, military dog, etc.).
We have a dog in our Ring club that is like this. He (Malinois male of course) is a great sport dog he just got his last leg of FRII recently. Problem is he is pretty darned handler hard, he expresses himself in a very dominant manner just like the description for social aggression from the working dog site.
This dog is always challenging his handler as a result he got worked with a lot of compulsion. This dog is dominant to the point of I've seen him resource guard the decoy from the handler when the handler picks him at the end of the guard and escort. It's a crazy thing to see. I do see positive reinforcement is part of the equation though in this dogs continued success, the compulsion is/was more of a check. Though now compulsion is not as prominent as it used to be as that dog/handler team grow in trust of each other.
His work is spectacular with awesome grips and athletism. But to much work for me! I'd love to own him just not train him my self, if you know what I mean.
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Re: Dominance vs. pack structure.
[Re: Geoff Empey ]
#205108 - 08/09/2008 03:36 PM |
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Thanks so much Geoff. I have to admit to having been completely ignorant to the term "social aggression" and what it entails. This makes sense to me and I can definitely see how this would be a great advantage in a real life conflict.
It might be the only kind of protection dog for me. I would be a terrible PP dog owner because I know I would never let the dog do its job.....I would feel responsible to protect the dog. However; this dog would kick my ass and then go on to take out the bad guy so it just might work 
Any chance you can get a film of this dog at work? I'd really love to see him in action.
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Re: Dominance vs. pack structure.
[Re: Sheila Buckley ]
#205117 - 08/09/2008 03:55 PM |
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LOL Geoff,
Yeah yeah, that's gotta be cool to see.....A dog resource guarding a decoy......from the HANDLER!!!???? Hahahahaha Talk about an evil demon pita dog!
That being said (and laughed about), once one of those kind of dogs come into your life and they learn to respect (or is it you EARN their respect and trust?) and trust you, you'll be looking for another one just like them after they leave.......for the rest of your days.
They are indeed special.
Randy
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Re: Dominance vs. pack structure.
[Re: randy allen ]
#205140 - 08/09/2008 06:24 PM |
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I don't have any video Sheila of him. Or any of him doing the social aggression for sure, I do have one of him wearing a leprechaun hat though! 
For sure Randy a dog like that as a PSD or MWD is a rare bird indeed. But you do need the handler that understands what he has on the other end of the leash. Once a handler is in tune with a dog like that that is quite a team. Will's dog Fetz and Sandy's dog Lear from their descriptions I've read on the board sound like dogs with a fair amount of social aggression built into their dominant traits.
I read somewhere on Leerburg's site about a GSD PSD that Ed took in that attacked a few of his handlers and when apprehended suspects would drag the suspect under a desk or the like and resource guard the suspect from the officer!! I'd hate to be a suspect nailed by a dog like that .. I bet they'd be thinking they were going to die! That is extreme in the most extreme sense.
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