Dave Lilley wrote 07/10/2002 11:01 AM Re: Rethinking Prey, Play, and Hunt Drives [Re: Pete Felknor ] #2398 - 07/10/2002 11:01 AM
Dave Lilley Webboard User Reg: 08-10-2001 Posts: 380 Loc: Offline	Pete... what do you mean by "real" drive? Do all drives have to be NATURAL? "Ball-drive" for example. The first time many puppies see a ball they often aren't very interested (even those that exhibit high ball drive later)... We often have to "show them" how fun it can be.
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Richard Cannon wrote 07/10/2002 11:10 AM Re: Rethinking Prey, Play, and Hunt Drives [Re: Pete Felknor ] #2399 - 07/10/2002 11:10 AM
Richard Cannon Webboard User Reg: 07-17-2001 Posts: 1496 Loc: Offline	And we're off.......... I would think that "ball drive" is more an expression of prey drive, most dogs need to be taught the prey items we want them to Play with. If you can't be a Good Example,then You'll just have to Serve as a Horrible Warning. Catherine Aird.
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Dave Lilley wrote 07/10/2002 11:21 AM Re: Rethinking Prey, Play, and Hunt Drives [Re: Pete Felknor ] #2400 - 07/10/2002 11:21 AM
Dave Lilley Webboard User Reg: 08-10-2001 Posts: 380 Loc: Offline	Although I like theory... I'm a realist. I agree with Pete that what we call "a drive" is simply a desire to do something. I've been researching this topic for several years now and have come to the conclusion that "drives" are emotions.... plain and simple. When we want focus from a dog... we often put them in a cage for a while... or in a down...why?... we are manipulating their emotions so that they want to play. Some emotions are natural... hunger... sex etc... some are learned. Bottom line... it doesn't matter... drives are emotions.
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Pete Felknor wrote 07/10/2002 11:32 AM Re: Rethinking Prey, Play, and Hunt Drives [Re: Pete Felknor ] #2401 - 07/10/2002 11:32 AM
Pete Felknor Webboard User Reg: 07-13-2001 Posts: 495 Loc: Deerfield, WI Offline	Richard & Dave... Maybe now we're getting back around to what my problem is here. Other dogs I've trained were more or less like this: "You want me to chase what you just threw? Okay." Sure, as time goes on most dogs will show a preference for a "favorite" toy, but my issue with Cal is that the only things she REALLY wants to chase are animals. As I've said, she'll play ball or tug just fine in an enclosed space. But once she's outside, the scent of game seems to override all of her other circuitry. Certainly one cannot say that Cal has NO PREY DRIVE. So the question becomes--how to channel her "real" prey drive into the pursuit of non-living things??? Pete
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Richard Cannon wrote 07/10/2002 11:40 AM Re: Rethinking Prey, Play, and Hunt Drives [Re: Pete Felknor ] #2402 - 07/10/2002 11:40 AM
Richard Cannon Webboard User Reg: 07-17-2001 Posts: 1496 Loc: Offline	I would seperate an emotion from a drive. To me an emotion is more of a reaction to an outside stimulus that doesn't require action, a drive requires an action. I don't think that emotions can really be manipulated the way drives can. I think that often we manipulate drives with out intending to, and the result is that drives aren't well understood because people can't always recognize how the drive has been manipulated. For instance with Pete's dog, I guess is that at some point the dog was corrected for playing with the ball, but not for chasing squirrels. In some cases I think that we modify the prey objects or the context of proper expression of prey drive without intending to. It is possible to shape this behavior not only in the context of what, but where to use the drive. If you can't be a Good Example,then You'll just have to Serve as a Horrible Warning. Catherine Aird.
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Dave Lilley wrote 07/10/2002 11:44 AM Re: Rethinking Prey, Play, and Hunt Drives [Re: Pete Felknor ] #2403 - 07/10/2002 11:44 AM
Dave Lilley Webboard User Reg: 08-10-2001 Posts: 380 Loc: Offline	If the emotional desire for a toy can not be created, find something else to motivate the dog... food for example. We can manipulate the emotional desire for food by making the dog hungry. Create an emotional desire. Reward correct response by relieve some (not all) of the desire.
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Pete Felknor wrote 07/10/2002 11:44 AM Re: Rethinking Prey, Play, and Hunt Drives [Re: Pete Felknor ] #2404 - 07/10/2002 11:44 AM
Pete Felknor Webboard User Reg: 07-13-2001 Posts: 495 Loc: Deerfield, WI Offline	Corrected for playing with the ball... Hmmmmm. She did spend some time in a home with small children. You may be on to something, Richard.
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Richard Cannon wrote 07/10/2002 11:45 AM Re: Rethinking Prey, Play, and Hunt Drives [Re: Pete Felknor ] #2405 - 07/10/2002 11:45 AM
Richard Cannon Webboard User Reg: 07-17-2001 Posts: 1496 Loc: Offline	Pete, It sounds like the problem isn't lack of drive, but lack of focus. The dog just prefers animals for a prey object. That may be hard to modify in an older dog. It is like when Bernard is checking for the dogs preferred toy. The problem is the dog prefers animals to a ball. I would further guess that the dog was corrected for playing ball in the house at some point and the dog generalized that to mean don't play with the ball if there is something more interesting available. Based on that you are going to have to make the animals less interesting. If you can't be a Good Example,then You'll just have to Serve as a Horrible Warning. Catherine Aird.
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Dave Lilley wrote 07/10/2002 11:50 AM Re: Rethinking Prey, Play, and Hunt Drives [Re: Pete Felknor ] #2406 - 07/10/2002 11:50 AM
Dave Lilley Webboard User Reg: 08-10-2001 Posts: 380 Loc: Offline	An emotion can come from inside (biology or psychology eg. depression based on chemical imbalance) or outside from the environment... and can easily be manipulated. Emotions stimulate the dog to act.... always. Of course, some emotions are stronger than others. And, some dogs are more emotional (more drive) than others. I know this contradicts all that you have been taught.... keep an open mind.
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Richard Cannon wrote 07/10/2002 12:10 PM Re: Rethinking Prey, Play, and Hunt Drives [Re: Pete Felknor ] #2407 - 07/10/2002 12:10 PM
Richard Cannon Webboard User Reg: 07-17-2001 Posts: 1496 Loc: Offline	Dave, At some point, in order to carry on a conversation, the definition needs to be agreed on. If not then you spend all your time argueing over the definitions and can't discuss the real issue. The definition of drive is fairly widely accepted, based on that it is just easier to use that definition so we can discuss how this affects the behavior of the dogs. I wasn't a big fan of a long list of drives (I am not sure I am yet), but to discuss the issues around "drives" I had to accept the definintions as they are commonly used here. If I don't there can be no conversation, because you spend all your time argueing over definitions. If you can't be a Good Example,then You'll just have to Serve as a Horrible Warning. Catherine Aird.
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