I have grown to become a huge skeptic myself, whenever it comes to big pharm and any other corporation (FDA, CDC, etc.) Doctors are "supposed" to protect their patients, but so often they don't. I have seen first hand in family members where the doctors push all kinds of pills, seem oblivious to their side effects, and don't listen or seem to care when questions are brought up.

ALL vaccines and ALL meds have the potential for serious side effects. Are these side effects ever heard about when the drug initially comes out? Often not. It isn't an easy answer. Each individual has to research and make the decision that makes the most sense for them, pros and cons weighed.

Personally, I'd never give my kid this vaccine or the chicken pox vaccine. I believe in pox parties. I don't yet have children but lord help me if I ever do!!!!!!!! I will research everything with a fine toothed comb, and err on the side of less is more.

 Quote: michael_wise

I would really like to hear of a real vaccine experts view on this.

 Quote: polly gregor

As an immunologist (PhD and 25 years experienced post degree)

Polly! You are who I had in mind when I wrote that. Couldn't remember your name at the time, but remembered we had an immunologist on hand.:smile:

The "evidence" I saw that pointed out disease decline pre-mass vax was on anti-vax websites. Through A LOT of searching, I was able to find the same "evidence" elsewhere. Honestly, and I know it seems handy, I cannot remember exactly where I found it. It was links that led to links that led to links......I didn't "favorite" it.:frown: Tonight, or tomorrow when I get time I will do my best to find it, as I would really like to have your thoughts on it.

 Quote: michael_wise

I didn't have to deal with any of these diseases in my time, so I don't have any first hand knowledge of the emotional impact of these diseases and vaccines.

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

I contracted paralytic polio when I was a little kid during one of the national epidemics in the 50s,

Connie, you were who I had in mind when I wrote this.:smile: 1st hand experience with a topic like this always weighs a little more, IMO.

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

 Quote: polly gregor

Poeple have very short memories.

Well, many don't have those memories at all. Hard to draw on a memory that's not in your banks.

Thank you for pointing that out. I DO know that I have a short memory with stuff like this. I also know that I WASN'T there. I made sure to put my above quote in that post because people my age DON'T know about these diseases. We've never dealt with them. I know that my opinion *could* be skewed because of that. Its still my opinion. Nothing more.

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

Applause for discussion like this.

ETA Thank you for keeping the discussion civil, apolitical, and free of personal attacks.

I know! I can't even have this civil of a discussion with ANYONE in my family about Cheerios® vs. Honey Nut Cheerios®.

O.K., now I'll go back to shutting up.

 Quote: Michael_Wise

.... I can't even have this civil of a discussion with ANYONE in my family about Cheerios® vs. Honey Nut Cheerios®.

What!? Are you one of those ****ing Honey Nut Cheerios lunatics??

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

What!? Are you one of those ****ing Honey Nut Cheerios lunatics??

Now, now....Its closed minded attitudes like this that can polarize forums and make people lose stars.J/K

Stephanie,

I think there is a big difference between chickenpox and HPV vaccines. You have to consider the cost/benefit ratio for all treatments. My two older kids got chicken pox well before the vaccine was available, but I gave it to my third, primarily to keep her from an adult infection (which is very very unpleasant) and from shingles. Now I understand that there is recent debate about whether the vaccine protects from shingles, or has in fact the potential to increase incidence. If I had a baby now, I would talk to the pediatrician and make a decision.

HPV is different because while chickenpox is becoming rare due to the vaccine, HPV is extremely common, and will be in the population for many years. Also, in an imigrant society, it will always re-enter the country. Given that boys are not even now being immunized, and not all girls, this is not going to go away as fast as some other infectious diseases. Most importantly, because HPV causes cancer, it is in a different category from chickpox, which is very very rarely fatal.

As a cancer research, I know that it is very hard to combat solid tumors. Cervical cancer, once it escapes the cervix, is a difficult disease to treat. There are only a very few cases where we know that a specific event, in this case a virus, causes a deadly cancer. To us researchers, it is very hard to understand why patients worry more about what seems to be remote chances of side effects from vaccination when they should be more worried about the very real posibility of developing HPV, which is proven to lead to cancer. Merck did not prove this link, it is in the literature for over twenty years. When I was in graduate school, a visiting professor at Columbia University, working in another professors lab, made the first observations that I am aware of to show a link between HPV and cervical cancer. There was no Pharma involvement.

Most people who are HPV positive never develop cancer, some have early stage lession that spotaneously resolve. However, even treatment of early stage cervical cancer is very upsetting, which unfortunately I know from personal experience. In my case, I am HPV negative, but have had two biopsies, and need quarterly PAP smears to keep a close eye on myself after a diagnosis of CIN1 dysplasia. The biopsies, particularly the second larger excision, was not fun at all. I am not worried about my health, I am on top of it, and there is little chance of a bad outcome given my diagnosis and the care I am receiving. Hey, at 51, I don't need my uterus anymore anyway.

However, there is a large disparity in outcomes between women of different socio-economic classes, and this is not a reflection of sexual mores. I have excellent health insurance. Many people do not, and they are less likely to get regular PAP smears, and therefore they tend to be diagnosed with more advanced disease, where the outcome is far more likely to be very poor. This is a serious societal problem. This is also true of breast and prostate cancer. Health care is not equal, as you know.

The idea that my daughters can recieve a vaccine that protects against the agent that causes almost all cervical cancer (my condition is unusual) has a great deal of appeal for me as a mother, and as a cancer researcher. I just do not see the down-side.

I love Cheerios, and with great sadness, I buy Honey Nut Cheerios for my kids, when they insist. If I lose a star, so be it.

Honey nut all the way... it's the choice that the neices and nephews agree upon with me. Well written Polly. Thanks for the information.

I very much appreciate this discussion. What a great exchange, with well-presented points of view.

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

I very much appreciate this discussion. What a great exchange, with well-presented points of view.

The vaccine part or the Honey Nut Cheerios® part?

 Quote: Polly Gregor

I love Cheerios, and with great sadness, I buy Honey Nut Cheerios for my kids, when they insist. If I lose a star, so be it.

I gave a good rating.:smile:

 Quote: Melissa Thom

Honey nut all the way... it's the choice that the neices and nephews agree upon with me. Well written Polly. Thanks for the information.

 Quote: Shody Lytle

And I am in the Honey Nut Cheerios whacko pool....

Who's the lunatic now? Huh? Huh?

Looks like sooommmeebody is in the minority around here when it comes to whole grain goodness.

What was I doing...Oh yeah, shutting up now.