I think thats a product of our instant gratification society, that we want a "German Shepherd", but then we don't want it to think or behave like one.

Dogs aren't lawn ornaments, and a GSD shouldn't be bred to look good. It you happen to luck out and get a good lookin' GSD that has been bred to the proper working temperment and form, well then, life is grand.

Don't breed for looks and hope that you get a dog with the right temperment.
And lastly, don't like a breed because of the way it looks, and breed what you see as negative drive out of the dogs.

not sure if you were responding to me Enrique, but i never said anything about not wanting any drives or wanting a statue. for those that arent looking for a PD, a mondio partner or a super driven dog that would be miserable (& potentially destructive) in a life without those drives being fulfilled, a GSD with less intensity is perfect for SchH, hiking, family dog...etc.

the person who posted about "looking like crap" i think was making a point that both SL and WL lines have value to many people and many people have dogs of both types and appreciate their qualities.

Let's face it---in reality most people are *intitially* attracted to a particular breed of dog b/c of its appearance. hopefully they will educate themselves on what temperment and personality goes along with that look before they go buy one.

there are levels within breeds, within lines--of working ability and drive and intensity. to deliberately pick a SL dog with titled parents but with less intensity than a WL dog doesnt mean that the person should have bought a statue or a a golden retriever instead. not everyone can devote the huge amt of time a high-drive WL dog needs (to be happy).

yes Alyssa, *for me* life IS grand! : } i have enough drive and then some to do SchH., GREAT focus, EXTREMELY eager to please, not so much drive that he cant just chill (after being exercised!) with the family & watch a movie, he is THE most trainable dog i have ever had and he's really pretty--which was last on my list of what i was looking for. the breeder i bought from focused on the whole dog, not just certain parts. and i would NEVER think that a breeder would breed out drive on purpose. that would just be WRONG.

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Let's face it---in reality most people are *intitially* attracted to a particular breed of dog b/c of its appearance. hopefully they will educate themselves on what temperment and personality goes along with that look before they go buy one.

It's not about the PEOPLE. It's about BREEDERS. The breeders should know better. People can only get dogs that are being bred, if the breeders stick to breeding quality dogs then the separation between work and show would not need to exist at all. Show has ruined, and continues to ruin, many good working breeds. Mal's, Dutchie's, Doberman's, GSD's, Rottie's etc. They are all going downhill fast, and it's because of the breeders. They make lesser dogs available and there's more than enough people to keep them in business.

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to deliberately pick a SL dog with titled parents but with less intensity than a WL dog

Thats EXACTLY the problem! The show line dog did not need to have been purchased. If titles and drives were being taken into consideration then they might as well have gone with a working line dog. What is the point of taking titles and drives into consideration when they don't mean anything? One does not need to look to show lines, with their worse than average hips and poor structures to get a dog that is easy to live with.

I speak as someone that has a show line dog. I love him to death, but it doesn't blind me from acknowledging his problems or the problems in the rest of the breed. My working dogs are all a lot easier to live with than he is. Reality is, most people love their dogs no matter what they are. They go and get a GSD because the dog is a GSD, whether the temperament/structure is correct or not. Reality is, they would be equally happy with just about any other breed, or mutt.

A common excuse for getting a purebred dog is that the temperament is predictable based on the breed standard. Since the breed standard's temperament description is complete BS when compared to what is actually being bred, that basically means that you have just as much chance of finding a dog with the desired temperament in any number of other places as with a GSD.

i agree that breeders (American breeders especially) let the most important aspects fall by the wayside and focus only on one or maybe 2 things--always to the detriment of the breed, in every breed!

as for takng titles and drives into consideration: the only thing a person CAN go on (when buying a puppy) IS the parents' titles & proven abilities and seeing the parents in person to weigh in or possibly predict a puppy's potential. are you saying heredity plays no role? you can only evaluate so much at 8 weeks and that is all quite subject to change. if i could have been assured of getting a less drivey WL puppy i might have gone that route since it wasnt about looks (altho physical appearance does contribute to defining a breed). but i was not willing to take the chance that i might end up later with a super drivey puppy and not have sufficient outlets for that. the dog/human relationship is a 2-way street--i wanted the puppy's innate/genetic predisposition to fit in with my family as much as possible naturally. why is that a problem?

if my only option for a GSD was ONLY a super hi-drive, intensely prey-driven PD type dog, i would have to pass. do i support anyone watering down abilities/drives on purpose to make an ideal house pet? NO (and that is ALSO not what i was looking for). but if the SL lines tend to be slightly less intense, and for some people that is more appropriate, then why should i not have gotten one?

let me say that the WL dogs that i am familiar with are not very good house dogs and not very reliable with small kids. those that i know of might not be the norm--but that was the experience i'd had when i began to shop for a breeder.

i disagree about temperment (in general!) not conforming to breed standard. you probably have WAY more exp & exposure to all sorts of GSD's than i've ever had---great, your opnion of course carries more weight than mine. but, with the exception of American lines--i think there is consistency overall, with varying degrees of drive(s), suspicion and intensity. the American line GSD's owners wouldn't think to set foot on a SchH field, or attempt police work of any kind.

i am not a breeder. i have NO intention of breeding. if i DID breed i would take all of the aspects of the GSD into consideration--not just looks (that woudl be last) but soundness of mind and body, trainability, willingness to please and natural ability to excel at several disciplines.

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Jennifer Kline wrote in part:
"but if the SL lines tend to be slightly less intense, and for some people that is more appropriate, then why should i not have gotten one"?

It's your money so it's your call. That said for a breeder to decide which drives or temperament are best for his customer base and then breed for that dog is fraught with unintended consequences in that a breeder can't just pull or add traits and or behaviors as the breeder see fit. Breeding dogs is not like following a recipe and I am not saying that you think it is. That is breed for all but intensity, if it were only so simple. Moreover as I have written before not all working line dogs possess the same drives and or temperament. A responsible breeders job is to breed for all the traits that define a breed on an going basis. Some times he is successful most times he is not. Show dogs for the most part do not possess the traits you seem to be looking for. Why? For the simple reason that those traits are not necessary for show breeders/handlers to win as shows, there goal therefore they are not selected for when identifying their breed stock and if a trait is not selected it becomes less by each such breeding. Regarding working dogs not making good house pets, it is never a good idea to make generalizations about dogs. I would suggest you go to a police K-9 officer and ask him or his family about their working K-9 dog and how is it to coexist with him or her. You know there are crappy working dogs too but not nearly as many as show line dogs. Damn a generalization (g). Regards Norman

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as for takng titles and drives into consideration: the only thing a person CAN go on (when buying a puppy) IS the parents' titles & proven abilities and seeing the parents in person to weigh in or possibly predict a puppy's potential. are you saying heredity plays no role?

Sorry let me clarify. They mean next to nothing in show dogs, because show dogs aren't kept to the same standard as working dogs when it comes to titles and trials.

Mike writes: "because show dogs aren't kept to the same standard as working dogs when it comes to titles and trials."

Thankfully, there are a few of us who are working to change this. Some of us actually train, and title our own SL at working dog clubs. Our dogs are NOT treated like fragile pretty gaiters. Plus amazingly enough, some of us even trial off our home fields! imagine that!

I will agree with the generalization that the majority of SL dogs lack a lot more than just character and stability. That is proven over and over again.

Some of us strive to achieve the same true testing of our dogs the way WL handlers do. Next time you see a SL handler out there on a working dog trial field, think about the guts it takes to get out there amongst the working folks, knowing we are already starting with less than the working handlers are. Yet, we are competing honestly, and NOT at midnight trials.

Plenty of working line gsd's could fit that bill. Unfortunately some people breed for "pets" only and that's what's hurting the gsd. There are some less intense WL gsd's that could fit into a home with no problems. Be a weekend sport dog.

i agree wholeheartedly that nobody should deliberately breed for "pets". if a person has no plan to train or work AT ALL, then he should get a pound puppy and enjoy it. they have value too.

i disagree strongly with Mike about purebreds not being any more predictable in type or temperment than a mutt at the pound. if that were the case, then why would we spend the $ on a purebred anything? heredity DOES play a huge role---or the distinctions between SL and WL would not exist.

if some?most? SL breeders primarily focus on looks and let the rest fall by the wayside, shame on them! but couldnt the opposite be said about WL breeders? that some strive for working ability ONLY and as a result *some* end up looking like mix breeds? sorry---dont mean to offend, but some look like Mal or Elkhound crosses IMO. they might be able to work circles around some SL dogs but that isn't the only measuring stick, folks. i would want one that is balanced in drives and energy levels and intensity. FOR ME, that works. that is not to say that it woudl have been impossible for me to get a lower-key WL and be happy--but that wasn't as likely based on my my situation or information.

yes, generalizing is a bad idea. for the record, i DO know a K9 and his dog is either in the unit, in a crate, in a kennel or working. most others i have known were in similar situations. to me that indicates they aren't so great as housedogs b/c they are pretty easily revved up and/or b/c they have so much drve to WORK that it may be a little harder for them to really relax and not BE "on the clock" 24/7 unless they ARE contained in some fashion. and maybe a handler wants to save all that drive & energy for the job.

i can equate this to horses---thoroughbreds were bred forever to RUN, as a result they are typically much HOTTER than most other horses, hence, some people choose to sign up for that challenge/drama/energy level in owning one and others do not. they are exceptional athletes to be sure, but they dont fit in every niche. some choose a lower-key more mellow horse. thankfully we HAVE those options to choose the right one for our needs/agenda in horses---as well as dogs. i would never throw stones at a WL dog or its owner for any reason for choosing such a dog. but there IS a niche for SL dogs (which does not necessarily equal "pet") and many CAN work, and the breeder i bought from DOES title her dogs in SchH and follow the German breeding rules and does NOT focus on looks or gait and she is not the only one.

why isnt there more tolerance and a "to each his own" kind of attitude? why do some WL people act like they are the Elite and us slobs with SL dogs just dont know any better and should be looked down on as lesser or be told we should have bought a GR if we arent going balls-out for mondio or some other titled-sport (that isnt perceived as being meaningless)?

we all adore our dogs and kudos to those that appreciate that BOTH types have VALUE for different reasons, in different situations.

Edited by jennifer kline (10/22/2008 10:39 AM)
Edit reason: oops--mistake/ommission