Collin,

Good for you for coming on this board and keeping an open mind to the responses! The people on this list are passionate about going about breeding right and you are getting some really good advice. Like others have said, there is no rush to get into the breeding game. Get out there, get involved, and be active with your dog. I have been where you are right now in the thoughts of breeding your dog :-)

When I first started in my breed (ACDs), I was all gung ho and truly did not realize the amount of knowledge and skill goes into being a responsible breeder and doing right by the breed. It became apparent to me shortly after attending my first Nationals that there is more to breeding than just putting two nice looking dogs together - at least not if you want an all around dog.

So I decided to get involved in the breed and soak in the knowledge. I attend my breed's Nationals every year and have spent two terms as VP of the national breed club. I have washed out 3 dogs for breeding (they are still beloved pets/performance dogs though)in the ensuing years but I finally have a bitch, who at this point, looks to be breedworthy. I say at this point because she is young and that evaluation could change. If I breed her, it will have been after 13 years of soaking in knowledge for me ;-) It has been well worth the wait though because I am able to have a breeding game plan that extends two generations from now based on my knowledge of the breed, who throws what, who has what temperament, and what type of breedings would work and what type are likely not to work.

Obviously, I am obsessive so I spent a lot more time than many soaking in knowledge so don't think you need 10+ years to be able to do right by your breed. However, in my opinion, you need to be involved enough to realize that while breeding decisions can be mind-boggling, your depth of knowledge of pedigrees, lines, and what you need to improve in your dogs allows you to make educated decisions. Decisions that everyone might not agree with but decisions that you can back up with rational, well thought out reasoning.

There is no need to write your boy off right now. Perhaps he is breedworthy. Perhaps not. The only way to find out is to get out there and expand your knowledge of the breed and to put him through the paces performance and health testing wise. If you wanted to, you could always collect him. That way, years down the road if you do find a suitable bitch and he turns out to be suitable, you have his semen to use.

Some might disagree with me here but just because his background is not titled does not mean he is automatically unsuitable for breeding. Both of my top performance males came off a ranch with no titles to speak of. However, they turned out to be dogs with tremendous minds and skill. I had to go out and put my money where my mouth was and title and rank them in various performance events but it was worth it because not only did it showcase their intelligence and talents but it increased the bond that I had with them. To this day, I consider my old male to be the best performance dog I have ever had the pleasure of training.

Good luck and have fun with your boy - that is the most important thing :-)

 Quote: Webboard User

.... if Im not mistaken. but... back to reality, again, Kingston will not be bred.

You have opened a good thread that I think will be informative to many folks, Collin.

Good for you.

thanks. if I run Kingston through some trials and see what his actual potential is then I may reconsider, but still his "pedigree" doesnt have the credentials most would want to see. when it comes to breeding quality rotties here in hawaii, its like I've been given a 5 foot ladder to climb a 10 foot wall. sounds like the only really acceptable thing for me to do is import a good male and bitch and breed em here, cuz no matter how much Kingston himself may be able to shine, his pedigree does not appeal to anyone. that's what I've gathered in the past 3 pages...

Collin,
There's no reason to be down about this decision, or feel bad about your treatment at the (granted) some heavy handed critiques. Most of the posts profided you with just what you asked for, "what sort of questions should I be asking?".
I applaud your wise choice. WELL DONE my friend!

There is no reason to abandon the ,perhaps, dream of breeding, it's just a long study curve is all.
Say, if I were interested in breeding; I start with the studies of G. Mendel and his peas if I had no concept of the simple heredity sequence and work from there until I had a firm grasp on the lottery system that is the genetic gnome of the mammal. Then I'd start talking to breeders whose dogs I admired (for what ever reason). If no breeders I wanted to learn (anymore) from were handy, I'd start working on letters and the net, try to get a long distant relationship going. I wouldn't expect it to be easy, But (shrug) anything worth while rarely is. Don't get discouraged. It'll be easier when you can talk genetics. Why the line breeding here, why the out cropping from that line?
Ya know, like all that breeder shop talk stuff.

Yeah yeah, whatever! I know nothing of breeding in case you haven't guessed.

Once I thought I knew exactly what I wanted to see, and with luck, add to the breed, that's when I'd start planning for a way to make it happen.

Again Collin. Good choice.
Good luck in your future discoveries.
Randy

I'll admit I have not read all the messages in this thread but I think that you are looking at this backward (or at least backwards to how I would think about it), importing a "good male and bitch" still leaves you at this point without the experience and knowledge to know *if* they are a good male and bitch. IOW, you would be basing this on what someone else has told you.

As for Kingston's pedigree not appealing to anyone on this board - at the end of the day, I would want to see Kingston be appealing. I don't care if his background was comprised solely of SchH 3 rotties, I want to see what Kingston is made of. If Kingston turns out to be a phenomenal rottie performance wise and has the appropriate health clearances, perhaps breeding him is a possibility. But at this point, Kingston's true potential is an unknown quantity (again in my opinion) I like this saying and think it sums it up best,

"Pedigree indicates what the animal should be. Conformation indicates what the animal appears to be. But performance indicates what the animal actually is."

 Quote: ingrid rosenquist

I'll admit I have not read all the messages in this thread but I think that you are looking at this backward (or at least backwards to how I would think about it), importing a "good male and bitch" still leaves you at this point without the experience and knowledge to know *if* they are a good male and bitch. IOW, you would be basing this on what someone else has told you.

As for Kingston's pedigree not appealing to anyone on this board - at the end of the day, I would want to see Kingston be appealing. I don't care if his background was comprised solely of SchH 3 rotties, I want to see what Kingston is made of. If Kingston turns out to be a phenomenal rottie performance wise and has the appropriate health clearances, perhaps breeding him is a possibility. But at this point, Kingston's true potential is an unknown quantity (again in my opinion) I like this saying and think it sums it up best,

"Pedigree indicates what the animal should be. Conformation indicates what the animal appears to be. But performance indicates what the animal actually is."

I must say, this is the post found the words I've been missing all this time. if this were posted sooner I probably would have never check this topic again. the point I tried to make was that you have to start somewhere. now, short of me unlocking Kingstons potential and performance, whats left? his pedigree?

this post basically sums up what first timers like me should be hearing. "If the dog himself can show and prove, then give him a shot." like some have mentioned, I have yet to run Kingston thru a trial, but at the same time it sounded as if even if he were to take top honors in every trial, he would still be "not good enough" because he lacks a strong line.

I cant re-word your statement any better Ingrid, but you have made the most sense in your post without being condescending. I really appreciate that.

Ingrid,
"Pedigree indicates what the animal should be. Conformation indicates what the animal appears to be. But performance indicates what the animal actually is." ...wonderful quote!!

...and with an open mind and willingness to be coachable, both dog and handler may just succeed in doing the seemingly impossible!

Yeah, pedigrees and linage don't really mean anything. It's always just the performance on trial day.

All good breeders don't worry about those silly pedigree charts at all. All that gobble-de-gook about recessive genes, yeah who needs it? They just 'wish' good dogs out of two good looking attitudes and strong bodies on trial day.

Give me a break.
Randy

PS.
Start studying Collin.

I am not saying that Randy but personally I don't write off a dog or place laurels on a dog's head based on what his pedigree is. It is a piece of the puzzle - just not the *only* piece.

I meant to also say that looking at pedigrees when breeding is an important factor but in this situation, I just don't see the point in slamming Collin and saying Kingston is unworthy of being potentially bred. He is trying to *learn*. He came here asking for advice and he got it. I credit him for coming and asking and wanting to learn.

Yes,he should not breed Kingston at this point as Collin needs to gain experience and knowledge and Kingston needs to prove himself in health, sound structure, and performance. If those things come to pass, then looking at pedigrees and considering breeding could be a possibility.

Collin, keep an open mind, get involved in breed/working clubs, even if they have to be long distance due to your location. Expand your knowledge base and work your dog. Through that you will likely discover if Kingston is worthy to be bred. It won't happen over night, It won't happen even in the next year but if you really want to be an asset to the Rottie breed, you can be one day. After all, even the greatest dog person started out with little to no knowledge.

Good luck.