when I say 6 lessons I mean I go to their house 3 times a week for 2 weeks or 2 times a week for 3 weeks and the owner works with the dog the rest of the time.I have good success with it.All dogs dont get off lead in the heeling, some do.But the owner knows how to continue working with dog to get it there.It doesnt mean they will do everything off lead in a new location under distractions but the owner knows how to continue working with the dog and are advised to take their dogs to new locations and work their dogs on lead.I never said anything about 100%.Didnt mean to offend anybody.I too have spent my share of money on learniing to train dogs.I worked one on one with Tom Rose for 10 months at his school where I graduated . I didnt want to spend years trying to figure out how to train dogs or waste time listening to someone who might not know what they are talking about.I still have alot to learn as I think Ill always have alot tolearn as every dog is different.I have no idea if youve been duped.Like I said didnt mean to offend anybody.

Thanks everyone, yes am using pos motvation with treats. and keep them in shirt pocket, she is very attentive, but I jsut might be slowing down and not realizing it, will watch that closer.
Thanks,

I learned this same technique when I visited Tom Roses school. But it was just to help with his pulling. I tell you I dont do it a lot but on "those days" it can really help him fall into line. My big thing is this if a dog is smart enough to figure out when the leash is on. Wont the dog start to figure out when you dont have your ball under your chin or hotdogs in your mouth. I know that every dog is different but I know my dog figures both of these out eventually. I also use a 30ft training lead to practice recall in distracting situations and boy can be an angel when he knows he is on lead. So I try to combine them as needed.

This post is describing avoidence training. There is no two ways about it. While you are praising after the correction, avoidence is the foundation.

This training is required on some dogs, and others methods will not simply work. It is an easy concept for your average Joe Blow to understand. Give command, correct if needed, praise.

This is used by many top trainers in sport, just that they use alot of play and ball drive to realease the dog.

Alot of times when someone knows how to apply this training, it is much faster then the all happy happy way. But as with happy, happy, you must know what you are doing to get nice results.

I know of at least six dogs that were strong and handler aggressive that were trained like this. But, and this is a big but, the man that trained them has mastered this skill.......and these dogs were titled to Sch3 with V points. I also doubt that a minimum force method would have ever produced the results that these dogs achieved.

Everyone needs to find what works best for them and thier dog. If you are talking about the average house pet then normally praise and corrections work well, as niether party want to go onto further training. If you are a sport or police dog trainer, then it is better to train with more positave methods as for the newbee you will make more mistakes, and that method is not as damning.

Let me start by saying I am not a "pro." I have worked w/dogs about 15 years, 1st as a hs volunteer, then as a vet tech. I have worked at a vets for 7-8 years total so I've seen dogs at their worst. Last 2 years I have gotten more serious about training my own and have done 5 dogs, all starting w/the long-line. The way I was taught this is not "3 minute heeling." The first week is all long line--walk 50ft, stop, hang out, turn and walk some more. Very boring!! Day 5 seems to be majic. Then I slowly start to shorten the leash and when the dog is in place I use the heel command and offer hot dog. I keep in mind that a 10 correction on one dog is different than that on another. My dogs wag their tails and seem happy to work. I have been to some schutzund clubs around and they all used e-collars to zap the dog when out of place. Is this an allowable correction while long line work is not? The philosophy I was taught is that the long-line allows the dog to learn on his own, that he learns the handler has a right to walk wherever, and the dog must pay attention.

I think this whole thread sums up the saying about the only thing two dog trainers can agree on, is what the third is doing wrong.

Mary, I can't comment for sure on what you have seen at SchH clubs so far as the "zapping" goes, but I will say that MOST that I know do not TEACH the dog with corrections. To correct a dog later when he choses not to obey a command that he does know is different.

That to me this method of heeling is like having a teacher smack you with a ruler for not knowing your times-tables when you have never been shown them before.

These are just MY opinions. No one needs to get offended.

I know I should just keep my mouth shut and cut my losses but here I go.I agree completely there is more than one way to train a dog.Ive trained mostly positive on submissive dogs and even on very aggressive dogs.I also beleive some training is unethical.My eyes are wide open to what ever works best to build a working relationship with your dog. My intention was to defend that there is more than one way to train and it is ethical and fair if done right.

As far as Officer Chow's comments.If your saying it takes forever or years to just train a dog to do basic obedience,then Ill just have to refrain from playing "devils advocate".

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Otherwise try some pieces in your left hand that he has to keep up and push at your hand for.

This works well for my pup but murder for me. Hands really take a beating. Guess when her teeth lose their points it'll be better.

"MUCH BETTER FOR ME TO ENDURE THE PAIN OF TRAINING THEN FANNI"

Butch,
Have you tried using a whole hotdog with just a tiny bit sticking out so the dog nibbles at it? advance it by pushing it down with your thumb.
That helps a little, but is still a bit painful.
I also use "thinsulate" leather gloves when I have exceeded my pain threshold.
Erin

Michael, sums this up well. This is avoidance training.

And in MY opinion a terrible way to teach a dog obedience.

Great way to proof a dog and work on precision later, but sucky way to teach.

Like Mike said, there are no two ways about it. If you are using leash corrections to train the dog you are using the dog's natural avoidance response to aversive stimuli as motivation. No matter what you are doing after. . .praise, a treat, a ball to relieve stress, whatever.

I would hope that as a pro trainer one would be offering his/her clients all of the information available to them for training their dogs. That would include introducing them to positive methods as well as compulsive methods. Then let said client choose what method they would like to apply to their dogs.