Quote: Kimberley Voyles

.... I still have many conflicting issues in my head, what if my dog had sat on my command and stayed and the little dog ran up to him and bit him, or me? What if I owned the small dog and they owned the big dog and my dog was killed, no amount of training on my part would have saved my dog. ...

Are you saying that because the roles could have been reversed, your lack of control could have been a plus? Then let's say this: What if it had been a toddler that ran up and waved his arms and shrieked at you and/or your dog and you were unable to control the dog?

Not being in control of the dog has no upside. None at all.

I don't think your mind should go down those "what if" paths at all. Protecting your dog, or even deciding to drop the leash in a terrible situation where you see that he needs to be free to protect himself -- these have zero to do with the event that did happen.

Having control means that you can make decisions. Not having control means that the dog is in charge.

 Quote: kimberley voyles

One trainer came over, we discussed the types of training options and he felt a "shock collar" would be best.

He put the collar on Cerberus. I told him a behavior I wanted to correct was when some people are at the gate, he jumps up on the gate. So, we went outside, he walked down the driveway, toward the gate and when Cerberus ran toward the gate and jumped on it, the trainer "zapped" Cerberus. The zap was so much it doubled Cerberus like he was punched in the stomach. Cerberus looked at me, looked back at the trainer who was walking toward the gate, the trainer did it again, this time Cerberus yelped. I took the collar off.

First problem is that the trainer didn't adjust the level of the E-collar (not called a shock collar-very misused word by many people, trainers, etc.). The trainer apparently didn't have enough knowledge of that training method to properly use it with your dog. A dog should feel the stim from the collar, not yelp. If a dog yelps then the level is too high. I use E-collars with all three of my dogs and each one needs a different stim level. The next problem, was that you gave up on the option of using the E-collar. There's a right way to use an E-collar and a wrong way. The trainer you had did it the wrong way-unless the collar wasn't one that you could adjust the levels of stim.

It's good that you're trying to help your dog and yourself by trying to resolve an issue. I do agree that there is a pack issue. I also think that all the years leading up to the incident, letting your dog attack and kill skunks, and other various critters that came into your yard probably wasn't the best thing either. I know that if one of my dogs were to kill something that made the mistake of coming into our yard, that they would know it was wrong. I do not want my dogs killing other animals (birds, squirrels, etc.), and I don't want to reinforce the behaviour by letting them continue to do it for years and years. This is JMO.

Also, have you spoken with the private trainer that you have for your other two dogs about helping you out with Cerberus? If so, and (s)he doesn't want to, why not? There are precautions that can be taken while training a dog that has a history of attacking other animals (once or more times), it's called a muzzle. Again, JMO. I would muzzle a dog that I didn't feel was completely trustworthy.

Very good point, Connie, about a toddler. They do that, too.


For what it's worth, Kimberly, if it were a small dog that run up to you and your dog, kick the dog out of the way.

But, you have to have control (be the pack leader) before you can protect your dog.

Please read, and re-read the stuff on here about pack structure.

I don't know where you are with your dog, but it's the little things that are meaningful to dogs. Who walks in front, who sits on the couch, who goes thru the door first.

Even things like who eats first.

It doesn't matter to me who walks thru the door first, but it certainly matters to a dog.

 Quote: Nora Ferrell

I won't hijack any more after this. I guess I just want to talk about my dog.

But her name really does have meaning. The Belgium Queen, Marie Henriette, popularized this breed which before had been pretty much a blue collar dog. Alert barking for shopkeepers, ratters, living aboard barges, etc. The first European dog show was supposedly held for this breed

My dog was on death row at a kill shelter, so, unlike Marie Antoinette, Mimi avoided the guillotine, lol.

I so wanted a little Fifi that was refined and princess-like and would perch on a pillow on my lap, but alas, her blue collar roots run deep and she is more a scrappy little dumpster dog.

If she wore clothes, they would be tattered.

Back to the original post.

I am not experienced with protection dogs, but I have owned a couple of the bully breeds (boxers).

I think you (in my humble in-experienced opinion) have a pack structure problem.

There are some really wise folks on here that will steer you in the right direction.

Open your mind to a new way of thinking and they will surely help you out.

You've never had this dog under control, he made the decisions.

Now you have a 'pack' and will be in serious trouble if you don't fix your pack structure.

You mentioned getting two more dogs.

Do you crate your dogs?

What are the living arrangements at the house?

Good luck, and seriously, these folks will give you a lot of help, but grow a thick skin because their number one concern is for the animal and not for your feelings.

I already have two other dogs, I have a total of 3 dogs. I am the only person who lives at my house, I work at home. Before I got Thora, 3 years ago, I took Cerberus with me every place I went when the weather permitted it. I use to live on an acre of land, which is where Cerberus would come across the skunks or possums. Now I live in a house with a big back yard. I have never crated.

I was open to the option of the E Collar, I felt the trainer did not know how to properly use it. Knowing nothing about the Collar except what I had read in that care should be used to not make the dog aggressive or more aggressive, timing, length of correction, strength of it, all important from what I had read. I could tell my dog was in pain, was sure he shouldn't be yelping or having body movements like he had and was not comfortable with that trainer, not the use of the training device.

I had contacted so many I was not even sure what qualifictions he had.

The more I tried to learn the more confused I was. There are so many variations of training and trainers. I knew I needed a good experienced trainer. I contacted a friend who works in Law Enforcement and asked if he knew who trained the K-9s. He gave me two names.

I actually contacted them for Cerberus, explained the history, they said for one that he was too old and the other was because he had killed another dog. I even asked the trainer at a few of the lessons if they could just to a temperament test on Cerberus, he said, that he already failed because he killed another dog.

 Quote: keleah stull

 Quote: kimberley voyles

One trainer came over, we discussed the types of training options and he felt a "shock collar" would be best.

He put the collar on Cerberus. I told him a behavior I wanted to correct was when some people are at the gate, he jumps up on the gate. So, we went outside, he walked down the driveway, toward the gate and when Cerberus ran toward the gate and jumped on it, the trainer "zapped" Cerberus. The zap was so much it doubled Cerberus like he was punched in the stomach. Cerberus looked at me, looked back at the trainer who was walking toward the gate, the trainer did it again, this time Cerberus yelped. I took the collar off.

First problem is that the trainer didn't adjust the level of the E-collar (not called a shock collar-very misused word by many people, trainers, etc.). The trainer apparently didn't have enough knowledge of that training method to properly use it with your dog. A dog should feel the stim from the collar, not yelp. If a dog yelps then the level is too high. I use E-collars with all three of my dogs and each one needs a different stim level. The next problem, was that you gave up on the option of using the E-collar. There's a right way to use an E-collar and a wrong way. The trainer you had did it the wrong way-unless the collar wasn't one that you could adjust the levels of stim.

It's good that you're trying to help your dog and yourself by trying to resolve an issue. I do agree that there is a pack issue. I also think that all the years leading up to the incident, letting your dog attack and kill skunks, and other various critters that came into your yard probably wasn't the best thing either. I know that if one of my dogs were to kill something that made the mistake of coming into our yard, that they would know it was wrong. I do not want my dogs killing other animals (birds, squirrels, etc.), and I don't want to reinforce the behaviour by letting them continue to do it for years and years. This is JMO.

Also, have you spoken with the private trainer that you have for your other two dogs about helping you out with Cerberus? If so, and (s)he doesn't want to, why not? There are precautions that can be taken while training a dog that has a history of attacking other animals (once or more times), it's called a muzzle. Again, JMO. I would muzzle a dog that I didn't feel was completely trustworthy.

 Quote: connie sutherland

I don't think your mind should go down those "what if" paths at all. Protecting your dog, or even dropping the leash in a terrible situation where you see that he needs to be free to protect himself -- these have zero to do with the event that did happen.

Having control means that you can make decisions. Not having control means that the dog is in charge.

Thank you. You are correct.

I have been learning about pack structure and will do as you suggested and read, read and re read.

 Quote: Nora Ferrell

Very good point, Connie, about a toddler. They do that, too.


For what it's worth, Kimberly, if it were a small dog that run up to you and your dog, kick the dog out of the way.

But, you have to have control (be the pack leader) before you can protect your dog.

Please read, and re-read the stuff on here about pack structure.

I don't know where you are with your dog, but it's the little things that are meaningful to dogs. Who walks in front, who sits on the couch, who goes thru the door first.

Even things like who eats first.

It doesn't matter to me who walks thru the door first, but it certainly matters to a dog.

 Quote: leih merigian

It's unclear from your statement, but I'm guessing you mean that if you witnessed your dog killing another animal, that you'd correct it for doing so, as opposed to meaning that if your dog killed another animal, it would somehow happen to realize it had done something wrong.

leih

This is what I meant, sorry I wasn't very clear about it.

Kimberly, I'm glad that you were open to the e-collar training and recognized that the trainer wasn't doing it right and didn't have enough knowledge about the method. If it were me being contacted as a trainer, I would try to help you out, regardless of how old the dog in question is. As far as the trainer not even considering doing a temperment test on him because he already "failed" by killing another dog, to me I'd try to help out.

I guess that I'm one of those people that thinks that even a dog that has a history can be placed in a home, properly trained and given a second chance, just not in a home that has other dogs. :shrug: that's just me though.