I am curious: if hackles are raised during play as a bluff, is that display also originating from a fear response?

I can understand that fear can/does cause hackles to raise.Can any other reason cause this phenomenon?

Does this mean that a dog can ONLY be considered to be exihbiting a fear based reaction to whatever stimuli if it raises its hackles?

I just sat out in the dogyard in a cloud of blackflies watching some of the dogs having a good play session. Of the three 4 year old littermates playing, all three had their shoulder hackles and rump hackles up a bit, but ears tails and body language were definietly in play mode.
There is a real difference in raised and REALLY
RAISED. The latter means here comes trouble.
A lot of play behaviours seem to be a toned down version of the real thing hence the stripe being up a bit and some snarling and playfight moves
that while they look pretty realistic are just good clean fun. I don't think a dog that reacts with a stripe up a bit is always acting out of fear, sometimes it is just a startle reaction to something new and really out of the ordinary in the enviroment. Kind of the canine equivalent of
Hey, What the...!. I can't speak for other breeds about the hackle thing, but my dogs have a coat and colouration that makes the diffence between a dorsal stripe up and REALLY up very
obvious even from a distance. (wolf-grey and sable siberians)

This is an interesting discussion leading towards several issues.

The two year old dog is coming out of "teenage" mode and into "adulthood". She is mouthy ie-bit the father-in-law while he was trying to leash her, full of spunk ie--running for all she is worth and outrunning the younger pup, and displaying herself as an Alpha ie--hackles up when approached by the neighbors.

Not knowing if structured obedience training has occured yet..this should be implemented immediately before this dog gets further out of hand and "more full of herself". The humans within her "family" must take a proactive strong leading hand and enforce uniformly across the board as to what is acceptable and what is not.

I would not allow this dog to behave with hackles up and "greeting" the neighbors given the fact that she has already bitten a family member that she knows. To say...oh..it's ok to the dog only re-enforces the behavior. A firm NO with correction should stop the behavior with praise when the behavior is terminated.

It is at this crutial age that many dogs are given up because they have lacked the education necessary to teach them what is expected and what is not acceptable towards humans by the humans who are responsible for them.

As far as hackles up when running and playing with another known dog..that's a different situation. Dogs communicate with their body language and the degree of hackle stance depends upon the element/intention/mood of the individual.
The excitement of play will slighly raise hackle but a higher "stand straight up" raise will demonstrate the dog is heading fast down the road of ill intent.

Bella has been OB trained since 6 mos. of age, thank goodness!!!My trainer was very ill, but very experienced( 45 years of training utility amomg otherr things, w/more titles than one could imagine on his dogs!!) so he was able to advise me when ever she tried to pull any nonsense. I f it wasn't for him I don't know if I would have had the great results I've had w/her.

The problem is that she listens to me the best, so often I have to come to the rescue of some other family member when the are attempting to command her!!

She also is wonderful w/ my kids and other kids when they come over. She runs up and down the house w/ them so she doesn't miss any action!!!

Jeannette,

I have gone back and read your posts for the entire thread. I have come to a conclusion. Please don't be offended, but for a starter take this dog to a profesional that is experienced with protection training for an evaluation. I would do this even if you are not going to protection train her. The reason I say this is that I think that you need to know what this dog is operating from to handle it properly. If I was to guess, I would guess that this dog does have weak nerves and probably wouldn't cut it in Schutzhund. It sounds like this dog was probably able to cope until the pup showed up. The added pressure is more than she could maintain with. The challange of the puppy for position is probably contributing to the problems. I could easily be wrong, I think that we aren't speaking the same "language" here.

In addition, you are not helping the situation by "rescuing" the family members when they have problems handling her. The impression that this creats is that the dog doesn't have to listen to anybody but you. As you have already learned this is a problem. In addition this dog seems to be learning that the way to handle situations that mwke her uncomfortable is to "nip". That can easily convert in to a "bite". The dog has to learned that when in stress, she can act up and you will come and "rescue" her. She needs to learn that other members of the family control her too.

I agree with Richard. The behavior described does not say confidence to me, but the pro-trainer idea is a solid one. Get a hands on opinion. Local Schutzhund clubs will usually do this for you if you are interested. You just have to tell them that you have a goal of Schutzhund training and you want to see if your dog could cut it.

That makes it unanimous! Richard and Vancamp...Thanks for the backup regarding the "weak nerve" issue.

Richard, I am not offended at all. I appreciate the help and direction given by ALL of the members of this board.

That said, I have been trying to get her looked at by truly experienced people for a long time. I want to bring her to the seminar being given by Kevin Shendahl (? spelling ?)that is in June since it is w/in a drivable distance from me. I am waiting for more info on exact loc./time etc.

There is a supposed DVG club near me, but her breeder is the treasurer and I know he isn't going to give me an objective view and also I have never seen him train any dog, he just buys and imports already trained and titled dogs for breeding.

I realize that she is not your typical house pet, and I really want to know/learn what is the best way to live with her happily. She is sometimes very perplexing to me.

For example, if she is laying down and I pass her, I might reach down to pet her as I go by. She NEVER thumps her tail.

She will come to me sometimes and sit in front of me when I am relaxing and look at me with her ears back and looking kinda sad, so I think that she wants some affection, and I pet her. Well, 2 seconds later she puts her paw on me and trys to mouth my arm. Of course then I get annoyed and tell her to leave me alone, which she will, after I get up or get mad.But I can't figure out why she does that.

I have never known a dog before that doesn't respond to petting, or that responds with biting/mouthing when there is a response.

She does not do this though, when I am training her in OB. She likes to work I think.

I don't know, I try really hard with her, which is probably the reason she is at the point she is.BUT,I recognize that I need to learn alot more about what makes this dog tick.

Dave and Van Camp, I have a definate stubborn streak in me and I think that a label of "weak-nerves" for my dog ,that I had such high hopes for, is just hard to digest. However, that is something that I guess I must come to grips with. Thank you all for the help.

Jeannette, Richard is correct. Every dog, no matter what the breed, MUST listen to all family members who are capable of giving a command. Most dogs have a favourite leader who they listen to all the time, but your other family members should work with this dog on commands to gain her respect. Even rotating who feeds her and making her work for it is a good idea. The "Me Big Kahuna. Me Boss! Me Give You Food. You Must Listen!" idea is listed in various books as a method that has worked well in a number of situations where other family members are perceived as not worth obeying. Grooming and stand for physical examination is also a good exercise to promote obedience.

Just my cheap 2 cents worth. Actually 1.5 cents Canadian! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />