Quote: Melissa Thom

So now that we've collectively established that same sex aggression exists and can exist despite managing the dogs is it possible for it NOT to exist or to train/condition it out of a dog? For those that have had dogs where same sex aggression existed was this something that a dog grew into similar to normal dog aggression or pack ranking, or was it just one day out of the blue Mr Scruffy decided that all male dogs besides himself MUST DIE?

In my experience, it happens at sexual maturity, and it might start with little warnings, like growling and meaning it, but has seemed fairly sudden. I'm not someone who allows dogs to get pushy or obnoxious with each other, and I allow NO rank behaviour, but it doesn't eliminate the same-sex aggression.

I've been able to make dogs get along for short periods for training, but would never do so if they didn't have my full attention. For some that's just not a realistic or safe goal. It's not something that can be conditioned or trained out, and isn't about leadership (although the absence of leadership is a potential disaster here for sure). It doesn't tend to disappear as a dog ages either.

But, like mentioned earlier, same sex aggression is much more prevalent in some breeds than others, and I would suspect the intensity can vary too.

This is an interesting thread. I have been trying to figure out what is going on with my girl, sometimes she is so great with other dogs and sometimes not. It seems for her to be a rank issue, the only little tussle I have seen her get into was with a male adolescent GSD who was not neutered.

Its almost like she was saying "Hey buddy, just cause you still got 'em doesn't make you boss!"

I have definitely noticed an increase of rank behavior with other females recently, but I try my best to limit her interaction with dogs that I don't know, so I can't be sure. There are a few older females that she is good with, so I only let her interact with them.

I have a friend that swears her rottie mix became more male aggressive after he was neutered at 4. Anybody have this kind of experience?

 Quote: kristel smart

It's not something that can be conditioned or trained out, and isn't about leadership (although the absence of leadership is a potential disaster here for sure). It doesn't tend to disappear as a dog ages either.

Great post, Kristel. I have comparatively little experience, but from what I know having watched my own dog mature, this is all true. Oscar's switch flipped relatively suddenly, when he was around 18 months old - it went hand in hand with all of his "big boy" temperament changes (territoriality, protectiveness, etc). I don't believe it's possible to train him out of his inherent dislike for other dogs with a lot of testosterone, but he is trained to have a little self restraint.

~Natalya

 Quote: Melissa Thom

For those that have had dogs where same sex aggression existed was this something that a dog grew into similar to normal dog aggression or pack ranking, or was it just one day out of the blue Mr Scruffy decided that all male dogs besides himself MUST DIE?

Another thought provoking question...

The 2nd female was 5y when added to the household and she came with issues. From what I hear now, has always been a scrapper.
The male that has issues came at age 6, he was mostly good but offered some behaviors that made me go hmmm? After being here 6 mos he offered a clear signal of aggression to one of the other males. His background stories are inconsistent as far as interaction with other dogs. So I can't really speak to: did they grow into it or was it just out of the blue. I have noticed that my females tend to do more taunting, whereas the males display more of a you will DIE>

It seems to me there are so many variables: gender, breed, genetics, individuals, experiences. Does it takes just one variable for aggression or is it a combo? I find this topic very interesting.

I totally understand both sides of demanding the group get along and separate and rotate or some where in between. It will be different for everyone and their dogs.

I used to be in the "demand they get along" camp until I became involved with Dobermans. My friend and I used to mix our randomly assorted packs all the time (hers: a GSD, a Pit/Rottie mix, and a Pit/? mix; mine: three Greyhounds, A female Dobe, my sister's GSD, and random fosters) and never had a problem. Nobody was allowed to cause any greif, and that was that. It worked great, and absolutely amazed those who knew the individual temperaments of some of the dogs. I even used to take my DA dog to public events and he was quiet and well behaved.

With the Dobie boys (and a few of the girls), I realized rather quickly that I could demand they get along all I want, but it just wasn't going to happen. Until then I thought my 'supreme being-ness' could determine all because I willed it, but not so much I could demand self control, but it was an uneasy, false truce and no way for anybody to try to live. It was a completely different vibe than the usual rank-type posturing the other dogs would have liked to engage in. It was much more intense and with deadly intent. They didn't want to fight each other, they wanted to KILL each other. It was an interesting (and a somewhat humbling) learning curve.

 Quote: kristel smart

I used to be in the "demand they get along" camp... It was an interesting (and a somewhat humbling) learning curve.

My experience to your post has been the same. I went through all the human emotions of I suck, etc to trying to get in the head of the dog and asking all the whys...have since changed my tune as far as group interaction.

In all honesty I set my self up for this because of the qty I have taken in, but my rationale has been what I can offer is better from where they came. This does not take into account, is my actions fair to the dogs. I don't know and not sure I want to know the answer to that.

Nevertheless, dog talk is interesting for me and every day I am open to learning something new.

 Quote:

My experience to your post has been the same. I went through all the human emotions of I suck, etc to trying to get in the head of the dog and asking all the whys...have since changed my tune as far as group interaction.

I went through all of that too. I had a serious "I suck" phase. But over time I've realized that sometimes you have to meet the situation where it's at instead of trying to force it to be something that it can't realistically be. I've had to learn a bit of flexibility, but I think it's been good for me

There's a huge gap between the kinds of dogs that will growl, posture and fight, and dogs that will silently go for the throat without warning. If someone hasn't experienced the latter, it might be a little tough to relate to. IMHO it's much kinder to separate and rotate in this situation than to subject the dogs to constant anxiety. It's more work for the humans, but if done well, dogs can live very fulfilling lives this way.

Having had one who would silently hackle then go straight for the throat I can also agree that it is a totally different experience than the normal growling posturing rank fighting most dogs will do.

This is an amazingly enlightening thread. I have little to add except to say that sometimes dogs have changing health conditions over time that can influence their social behavior in unpredictable ways. Pain from teeth problems can do it. We have a dog with PRA who, with vision, was the friendliest, most social guy around - never met a dog he didn't want to be buddies with. Now that his vision is going, he's so much more reactive, and his general anxiety is higher than ever. We have to shelter him alot, and take more individual walks with him than ever before, and he doesn't get much "pack time" unless the rest of the crew is pretty tired and mellow.

We have four neutered males right now.

Among lots of things that I take out of these discussions is the importance of supervision when the critters are together.

Thank you to those who have responded to this question series. I greatly appreciate the detail for such a difficult topic. I have seen a fair amount of dog aggression, same sex aggression (in other animals), resource guarding and rank aggression over the years so I appreciate any input on the matter. A day where I learn something new and get a little humbled is always a great one.