Quote: Linda West

So what do you do with a kid who was so abused that they simply cannot tell right from wrong?

There are two classes of wrongs, mala in se (the act itself is wrong, like murder) and mala prohibitum (the act has no moral value, it is simply prohibited, like running a stop sign)

We do not have to think much about right and wrong to stop at the stop sign.

What you do is simply map out all prohibited acts and consequences, whether or not they have a moral component.
And then give the consequences if they choose to do the acts.

 Quote: randy allen

They should be kept where you can do all the help you want, not loosened on a society that already has it's share of problems to deal with.

Agree, after they have broken laws such as here, with the burned dog. Those who can live within the framework and break no laws and not harm others, get to live in society.

 Quote: linda west

So what do you do with a kid who was so abused that they simply cannot tell right from wrong?

That's a difficult and sad situation, but I can see no alternative other than to segregate them from society to eliminate the risk of harm to others. There have been other models tried (e.g., group homes and 24-hour social workers/caretakers), but none are as accepted as an institution, with children.

Unfortunately, given the huge expense of RTC's and of prisons, no judge will grant long-term sentences based on "risk" or "potential of future crimes" alone. Long-term sentences are granted AFTER a heinous crime has been committed.

I guess in medical terms, you don't put a cast on a leg just in case it might get broken.

 Quote: Linda West

So what do you do with a kid who was so abused that they simply cannot tell right from wrong?

I too am in public service, working with potential cases of fraudulent misrepresentation when people are in receipt of income assistance.

As you know, aside from times of alarming recession, many people in need of income assistance have severe medical issues (mental and physical) and/or have not had a favorable upbringing. When there are cases of extreme abuse of the system (tax payer monies doled out under fraudulent pretenses) there is always a certain amount of public sympathy that goes to the underprivileged. We need to be careful about prosecuting that young adult with say Down’s syndrome or Autism. However, what we do look at is “the ability to form intent”.

So then what do we do with that fully disabled cancer patient that knew exactly what they were doing and only has two years to live? Extreme and extenuating circumstances often lead otherwise law-abiding, good natured people to commit unthinkable acts. Not the discussion here but “the ability to form intent” plays a large role in my views on these difficult decisions.

When I look at this guy (abused or not) and the temper tantrum he threw, I compare it to folks being really ticked off at the government. “I’ll get them back, you just watch me.” Coming up with a bogus need for extra money is not anywhere near torturing a defenseless animal, but I believe the “Intent” was the same.

Disabilities, Mental illness and upbringing aside, I always from my opinions based on the intentions of the individual, regardless of what they perceive to be right or wrong (a whole other discussion).

I don’t give a rat’s butt weather he had an ability to feel empathy or not. Were his intentions to harm? Absolutely, his mother in this case (at the expense of her dog). He probably knew lighting her on fire would carry a much heavier consequence, so let’s just do the pup.

Do we need to be a murderer to understand a murder? I don’t think so. Was the intent to preserve your life or harm another out of jealousy, rage, or just simple malicious cruelty because you’ve been so hard done by yourself? Other than self-defense and a total lack of ability for form ANY kind of intent, I see no reason for sympathy on behalf of these cruel, worthless, self-serving, ego maniacs.

Tammy, I hope you don't think that I am "building a case that the poor boy was abused". IMO there are too many individuals running around who by all means SHOULD be in jail and too many people who get a slap on the wrist for horrendous things. I am not trying for people to feel sorry for this guy because first, just feeling sorry does not really accomplish anything, and second it impairs people's ability to assess the situation correctly and deal with it correctly. I am trying for people to see that there are kids who, with the right supports, enormous amount of effort, many people involved, and within a looooong time frame do have a chance of making it. It is important to understand that there are very specific issues that need to be addressed in order for any single abused kid to be able to overcome. One of them is the society's understanding of what these kids face and the shortcomings they have as a result of adults being boneheads. Without people becoming interested and actually studying these issues there is no way anyone can understand how to help these kids. Even if people can gain the ability to lend a listening ear to an adoptive parent while having an understanding of where these people are is an enormous help. I can't believe the nonsense these parents have to put up with from relatives, professionals, etc.! I am trying to make people aware of things like reactive attachment disorder. I bet you very few have heard of it and I did not either until I became involved with these kids. My internet connection is going in and out and I will write more later. Thank you all who contributed, very good points and I will be back.

Before you start running around shouting about the wonders of RAD therapy Lenka, me thinks you should learn more about it.
Quote
RAD is one of the least researched and most poorly understood disorders in the DSM. There is little systematic epidemiologic information on RAD, its course is not well established and it appears difficult to diagnose accurately. There is a lack of clarity about the presentation of attachment disorders over the age of five years and difficulty in distinguishing between aspects of attachment disorders, disorganized attachment or the consequences of maltreatment.
Unquote from http://www.rad-online.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=50&Itemid=72


What ages did you say you were working with?

I think you'd be farther ahead just dividing the class, Sociopaths on one side, and the kids that just need an education and a chance on the other.
That way you could concentrate on the ones you can actually help.

Lenka- I am very familiar with RAD, I have been in both the medical and early childhood education field for many years. Without getting into detail, I do all I can to make sure that the children in my care, if needed, get the proper help . Pertaining to this topic, and the ones like it below, I give little thought to the past histories of these psychos. I see what is before me, and think of their future in society, IMO, it’s bleak. If someone has not been able to reach out and touch them by now, they are too far gone.

Warning….The elevator video is very disturbing.


http://www.wbaltv.com/news/21506282/detail.html
http://fortheloveofthedogblog.com/news-updates/caught-on-tape-man-kicks-tortures-little-dog-video

The time it takes to undo damage is also astounding. I know a couple, the husband was diagnosed with PTSD with symptoms of RAD. It took thirteen years, an extremely dedicated wife, lots of help from all different sources, and a miracle of God for him to get over this.

I teach high school BTW.