Quote:

This has absolutely nothing to do with the Pit Bull breed or dogs in general. A friendly lab or golden can smother a child in seconds. Supervision and little children goes without saying … in ALL situations.

I've gone back to this a couple of times CJ. Thank you.

I tend to use the term German Shepherd as most people use the word dog. Probably cause to me the rest of the breeds are German Shepherds wanna be's.......

Perhaps when I am talking to people without a background in dogs and I say "German Shepherds and kids need to be supervised", instead of "dogs and kids must be supervised" I am reinforcing negative stereotypes about my breed.....

Kind of scary for someone that considers herself an advocate for the breed.

I will be a little bit more aware of that in the future. Just never looked at it from the angle your post had me look at it.

 Quote: CJ Barrett

 Quote: Jenni Williams

You know as well as I do that there was a day when those ideals would have been vehemently challenged and called out in no uncertain terms, as opposed to politically pussyfooting around.

You know Jenny, when I first read this post I was infuriated, as you are justifiably so. I think someone can attest to that. I needed to calm down before I posted a “politically pussyfooting” response.

I have nothing against Michelle and think her heart is the right place, just misguided and uninformed. However her views have the potential to do some serious harm to the cause should they be widely shared. I thought lashing out would serve no purpose, my intent was to inform her that her views were not helping, in fact sending it miles backwards.

When I read her second post, I saw that nothing had changed, in fact, got my hackles up even higher. I’m not sure exactly what this board used to be like but I know that there has been quite a bit of talk about addressing issues and not attacking the person. However, I also agree that this situation needs to be “vehemently challenged”. So with that said, my response to her second post.

The issue I have with pittys and little kids is in a nutshell-Supervision-Too many stories out there about an adult thought the visiting child was safe with the home's dog..

This has absolutely nothing to do with the Pit Bull breed or dogs in general. A friendly lab or golden can smother a child in seconds. Supervision and little children goes without saying … in ALL situations.

I waited for my kids to be older to rescue these breed types

Good for you. However, there are many knowledgeable, experienced dog owners that do know how to properly position newborns, toddlers and small children into leadership positions within their family pack. You need to leave this kind of rescuing to the folks that know what their doing.

They consider the kids litter mates rather than alphas and hence the problems start.

If this has been your experience, you’re not doing it right. Many adults also find themselves in inferior positions in their dog’s eyes (often lower than a litter mate) and get injured struggling to move up. This is a lack of knowledge and second rate training, again nothing to do with Pit Bulls.

people should never lose sight that they are a powerful breed and need to be ruled by a strong leader.

True strength comes from within. Regardless of whether the dog is a “Chihuahua” or a Neapolitan Mastiff, they all have “powerful” dog minds, all too willing to manipulate situations in their favor. What we never need to “lose sight of” is the fact that they are animals and all have sharp, potentially dangerous teeth, their one and only weapon of defense - they have no choice, unlike the collars, leashes and 2x4’s at our disposal.

When they get into the wrong hands-someone who doesn't train them, you have a powerful menace.

Strong leaders/trainers are able to compassionately teach dogs the appropriate ways to behave in the presence of all humans (big and small) and manipulate their actions as needed, for our purposes. Any untrained dog left to “figure it out” on their own has the potential to become a “powerful” menace. Yappy Fifi can drive their owners insane with the constant challenging of humans and other dogs. That’s some pretty powerful mental menacing.

chiuaua who would bite your face off…. Imagine if that kind of ownership was placed on a pitty? YIkES.

Just make sure you send the picture to Mr. Frawley.

Oh and I didn't mean to glomp themall together.

Well that’s great. I hope from this point forward, you’ll remove the words “Pit Bull” when you’re speaking of dogs in this manner.

Excellent post CJ!!!

Just to clarify I was in no way trying to pick on Cocker's I know some great ones, and some obviously unstable ones. My point was that any dog can be a gentle companion or a problem and unsafe around children.

It doesn't matter if it is a golden retriever, a Pit, or a peekie-weeni-chi a dog is a dog is a dog.

No dog should ever be left around a small child unsupervised, anyone with children in the home should be very cautious when rescuing adult dogs IMO.

Breed specific issues drive me crazy, partially because I deal with them from an ignorant public despite the fact that neither of my dogs are of those feared breeds.

But mostly because a dog is a dog is a dog.

Some dogs retrieve, some herd, some sleep on a pillow and others zoom around all day. But when you get down to it they are all dogs, some of them are stable and of good temperament and some of them are nervy and not so great. Some are really hard headed and stubborn and some are as soft as they come.

 Quote: Jenni Williams

You know as well as I do that there was a day when those ideals would have been vehemently challenged and called out in no uncertain terms...

Agreed. I can at least speak for myself in saying that I thought the answer (or the idea that all pit bulls or bully breeds in general should never be around children) was a no-brainer. It was obviously a false judgement, there are probably hundreds of threads about it, and if a few people point it out there's no need for all of us to chime in if we aren't adding any new information, IMHO.

If you do come back to read this, I adore your signature photo. And we miss your input here!

eta. I grew up with the best damn dog that ever lived in my book, and she was a Cocker Spaniel. Again, it goes without saying that no breed is predisposed to neurotic problems unless they're overbred again and again and again and again... And even then, not all of them have poor temperaments. That also goes without saying. It's just the bad and the ugly ones that come from puppy mills and BYBs.

Just heard about this book a second ago. Thought everyone might be interested in reading all about the recovery of MV's rescued dogs.
It is at the top of my list to read, check it out:
http://www.thelostdogsbook.com/

I did not see the news show that talked about these dogs being rescued. But there are two short videos on this link, please watch them.
I can see why Jenny and Jennifer got tears watching that other story. After what these dogs have been through, and to hear the new owners/foster parents talk about the amazing turn around, it is nothing short of astonishing. It is a testament that it is all about the handlers and good treatment they are receiving.
I couldn't be more proud of these wonderful dogs.

I heard a radio interview on the lost MV dogs with the author, a behaviorist and trainer, and the adopter who uses his dog for therapy,on NPR... I can't remember the program. I think it aired last Monday? I still have issues with spending a ton of money rehabing a bunch of pitbulls when the money could be spent finding homes for stable, well socialized dogs dumped due to economic hard times.

With the MV dogs that's a moot point, as part of the settlement included something like $20,000 for lifetime care for each dog.

The shelters are overflowing with pitbulls, as is craigslist. There was a good discussion on the lost-dogs radio program about use of resources for rescued dogs, and the cost-benefits of rehabing pitbulls. MV dogs had high success, with only one euthanasia. Other dog-fighting cases are not so high in terms of success.





Edited by Kelly (09/27/2010 06:39 PM)
Edit reason: took out full name of scum bag and replaced with initials. Please refrain from using full name as it will show up in search engines and Ed does not like this particular scum bag. Thanks.

 Quote: kiersten lippman

...Other dog-fighting cases are not so high in terms of success.

But have they had the same time and attention paid to them?

I think people wanted to rehab these dogs because MV was a public figure, so the public knew about it and their rehab. When all of the dogs (minus one) came out fine, it shows the public (who was already watching, for the most part) that these dogs can be rehabilitated and they can be loving and wonderful pets, even with the violent background these poor dogs came from.

Most of the time fighting "clubs" are discovered, no one knows about it.

Wow that sure blew up. I haven't been on here in soo long. I didn't know this had blown up. I don't think I posted clearly enough don't know if I ever can on line without actually speaking out loud to a human and not be misinterpreted. My main concern is responsible ownership and the right fit for these dogs. I was not informed enough about the dog I adopted's behavior and training should have been strongly recommended to anyone who got him. He's better now thanks to advice and my training him according to various advice. (side bar When I said the Chihuahua would bite your face off that was an expression. I didn't mean it literally. I think it would have taken a while for Lily to literally "bite your face off". I forget it's hard for people to get exaggeration on line should have put a wink or some emotiocon.. We always said she was so mean she would bite your face off.) When I first posted somone I knew had called me about 2 weeks before needing to "get rid" of her 8 month old dog. Shooting it was brought up by her. I called a rescuer I knew and thankfully they got in touch with a rescue group who had a member meet her that night and take the dog. Then I look on facebook about 2 weeks later and she's got a new puppy. I was trying to post without actually stating the issue. She had adopted a "Bulldog" (she was it's 3 or 4th home)when it "suddenly(by suddenly she meant while rough housing with the kids) bit (grabbed him by the arm not breaking skin) her three year old and tried to drag it across the porch." Does it sound like a mean bite or something a litter mate would do??? Did this dog feel he was playing with his friends or was he aware of somone being in charge ( aka, by me,strong owner)?? (She has boys ages 3,4,6,8) So, yes this was a bad fit and this dog shouldn't have been around her kids without some sort of supervision. I mean supervison of the children as well. I'm just saying if you have young children and a lot of them with little surpervision, a bully breed (insert large breed if you wish or your own) may not be the best to adopt. Maybe a better way to state it is if someone has so many little ones that it's hard for them to keep up with them, getting a dog ,adopted, puppy, large breed small breed whatever may not be the thing to do at the time if ever. I think her hamster even died. I do have experience with the breed as far as ownership but am in no way considering myself an expert, I am trying to learn as much as I can and have been since only the late 80's so no I'm not an expert. I do LOVE the breed! I think they are cuddly, loyal and quite majestic. It's just MHO and clearly this was the wrong forum to express it (don't even think one exists maybe my facebook profile oh wait already did) when it's so hard to clearly state it and people are often inclined to put there own spin on things no matter what is said or how it can be meant. Kelly B said- "I think if someone is responsible enough to socialize, and supervise a pitt, or similer breeds, they can often be the BEST dogs with children." Yes that's what I'm getting at with the children comment. YES!!! That's why I said I would with my own kids. Because now I know about the need for socialization and training etc. When they were little I didn't have time for training I had a Golden, I walked him everyday, taught him basics like heel ,sit and down but I never trained him. He was an excellent dog anyways. ( He did have a sibling who bit a child though. The dog was chained constantly.) I probally should have just left this thread alone as it was but I have never been one to do that! I can't get on here at work so here's to all who have replied. This should be plenty of action on this one and wanket wasn't even mentioned once.! Peace!

Edited by Michelle-Pociask (10/09/2010 01:06 PM)
Edit reason: spelling yikes