Chuck,
On the rank issue, I would probably go with well-timed corrections at the time that the incidents occur. But, that would only be part of it. I would not allow three dogs to form their own pack and rank order in the first place, at least without making damn sure that *I* am the leader at all times. I would look at correcting that if that were the root cause, or part of the root cause. I guess I'm into looking at root causes for things, in case you can't tell! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Sometimes it is a simple issue of black and white, but in many many cases, there are contributing factors, and it can be a heck of a lot easier to prevent certain things from becoming a problem than it is to correct them later. See my post in "Why are they like that?" regarding anthropomorphism, for example.

Maybe I do overthink things a bit.

Both of the prong collars I have bought in recent years have had the warning right on the tag. As with most labels, it probably is the result of misuse and a subsequent lawsuit. :rolleyes:

Without great people like yourself that look into the root cause, people like me, act first think later types would get into a lot more trouble!

I for one thank you for being! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

That is a really nice thing to say. I am truly touched! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I agree that all corrections, no matter what level need to be well timed. I also agree with everything you said about being the pack leader and not allowing this situation to develop in the first place.(But now it has!) I'm not sure where the split really is on our views other that my way of describing the level of correction. I'm really just making the point that I believe the dog needs a little more than a little yank on a collar...the way I describe it....a level 10,000 correction, is just for effect and to make a point on how serious an aggression problem is and it must result in severe consequenses for the dog. I really believe if this makes the dog worst then there probably was no hope for the dog anyway. Remember, all this being said, these things must coincide with solid obedience training which will develop a bond with the dog. If all a person does is correct the hell out of the dog when it acts this way, but does nothing else to fix the overall problem then the whole thing is pointless.

Lonny you sap. :rolleyes: <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

 Quote:

Remember, all this being said, these things must coincide with solid obedience training which will develop a bond with the dog. If all a person does is correct the hell out of the dog when it acts this way, but does nothing else to fix the overall problem then the whole thing is pointless.

EXACTLY!!!! This is what I have been trying to get across. I could not agree more with that statement.

This is all speculation anyway. There is no way for any of us to say with certainty what is going on with this dog. I have been "taken" many times by people who describe a problem, then it turns out later that they left out critical information or slanted the information to fit their own needs, making anything I may have had to say completely inapplicable. This dog needs to be seen IN PERSON by someone who knows dogs.

And last but not least, never, I repeat NEVER underestimate the power of SAP! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Hey Hey Hey....I seemed to have opened up quite the discussion. I have printed out all of these responses and have gleened alot of information that I'm going to implement on Naka. First I want to make clear that I have had her from birth. I have watched and studied her personality. I'm not saying I'm a expert or I wouldn't be asking questions but you all haave some very good points. Deanna mentioned overtired. Both times she snapped was when she was hot(she's black) and the other occasion was after a hard run. I do agree that this should be no excuse but a factor that can be worked with both with dicipline and awarness on my part. I like L. Swanston reply (your so encouraging) I will work with her to make it fun and build trust. I think the idea that she is taking cues from her mom is a curious consideration. There is no doubt my dogs know I'm alpha. I do work with them more on a individual basis. I was taking Naka out with her mom but that has changed. I don't work and spend most of my day with these dogs. Pack dynamics is a two edged sword. They are great when they work together even pack competition. They seem to motivate each other. This is a family as well as a pack and until they out grow (or will they?) they scrap and play like kids. This is fun to watch. When they are working they know it as I only put thier collers on when they are out of the house. I use crate's as down time and they are cooperative about being in them. Naka has some things to learn and all these posts are going in her folder so I can refer back. If you have any more ideas or advice thanks

Hello everyone. I know I'm learning just from reading these post. One good thing about the people on this board, they will tell you what they are thinking (smile). Regarding the first dog in this post, the 3 dog pack (Nancy's dog(s). Nancy, I'm still not sure you are getting the complete picture here. What kind of background do your dogs have? What is your background with dogs (working dogs?) The GSD as I'm sure we know can have varying temperments just like people. But due to poor breeding/choices the problems can compound very quickly. Are we talking about your typical american GSD? Are you talking about import show lines? Are you talking import working lines or maybe strong DDR/Czech lines? What specific dogs are in the pedigree? Different lines throw different things. There are way to many variables to give you a complete doggie diagnosis. Also, you have 3 dogs? What are youg goals/needs for having 3 strong willed working dogs? 1 strong willed, dominant, I wanna be in charge of the pack dog, if you give me an unfair correction I'm going to take a cheap shot at you and let you know what handler hard is really all about, type of dog is way more than enough to handle even for an experienced trainer, almost impossible for a novice, especially when they are not in a very strict, disciplined, OB routine/program and have an experienced person guiding/helping them. Also, you said that you like to watch them when they work (all 3 of them) together. What kind of work are they doing? I may be off base, but at a year and half (ish), most of the time they are all full of piss and vinegar (puppy like) and the next moment they are trying to be king of the mountain (hormones) (they are also trying to show rank/dominance and see what they can get away with, just like teenagers/kids). The only "work" they should be doing is NONE. Their lives should be filled with, OB training, socialization, OB training, OB training, OB training, down time in their own individual kennel, some quality play time with you, nice long walks, grooming, socialization, OB training and more OB, OB, OB, OB, OB and lastly more OB. If I owned these dogs, the 3 of them would "NEVER" be permitted to run together ever. Realistically, how competant can they be at their job if there are issues about rank drives, dominance, fear biting, submissive or nervy behaviour (please don't say one of their jobs is to guard or protect your house or property) if that is their job, you could be reinforcing bad/negative behaviors without even knowing it. I don't know what your background is with dogs, but now whether you like it or not, you have a very large problem with pack dynamics and you have way more than you can handle in the dog department. I'm not trying to be offensive, but I can't remember who said it, if you think you have to much dog (and you do) and you're not sure if you can correct the problem, especially if it gets out of hand (and you can't) get rid of the dog immediately before something terrible happens. A dog of this caliber even under the guidance of a very experienced trainer will be to much to handle for a novice handler. The dog is going to hurt someone, if you're lucky it will be you (you aren't going to sue yourself right?), but more than likely, its going to be some kids waiting for the school bus or the paperboy riding his bike or the nice grandma who is doing her gardening across the street. I'm not an advocate of euthanasia accept as a last resort, but you have to be realistic as well as practical. You owe it to the dog to give it every possible chance to live a healthy normal happy life, if because of temperment or training problems or rank issues with the handler, maybe this dog can only live in a one dog household? Let a more experienced person have a chance to salvage the dog. In all likely hood, this dog is already on the path to death row. What are you going to do when the male wakes up one day and is full of testosterone and decides that he wants to be in charge of the pack, what then? Isolate the dogs, never permit them to run as a 3 dog pack again, get some professional help from a knowledable trainer who is well versed in working breeds and get into a "STRICT" OB program (not the kind of OB class at Petco, fyi). Also as a last resort, you could look into getting a complete bloodwork panel/vet check up to make sure there aren't some hormonal imbalances. If I had to lay it on the line, I would say you have a weak nerved dog who is kind of like an egomaniac with an inferiority complex (no pun intended, that was just to help describe temperment, etc). Have you ever looking into "SERIOUS" working dogs, breed by "SERIOUS" people? Do you ever wonder why they always ask so many damn questions? What do you want a dog of this breed for? Why do you want one of my dogs? How did you hear about me and my dogs? What kind of research have you done? What do you want to do with the dog? Do you have experience with working dogs, blah blah blah. I hope you don't think I'm getting down on you, I commend you for trying to get as much information and knowledge you can about fixing your problems, but don't get so blinded by the love you have for your dogs that you start to struggle with objectivity. A dog like yours is a liability, every day that goes by that the problem is not corrected is going to take you one step closer to someone getting seriously hurt by your dog. Do the right thing.
Just my $.02 worth,
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Brandon

Brandon,

I think I counted 16 questions in your post. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Just a little constructive critisism....try to break your posts in paragraghs. Its much easier to read. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I am closing this thread. I think enough has been said and what usually happens is the posts start to repeat one another. I think there has been pretty decent advice given.