http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YM8CvsRvIMI watch it till the end.

Nice video Al. Who's gonna be the first person to say "but that was a sport dog, not a true ppd..."???

Truth be told the scenario I had in mind was an agravated person after a fender bender or at a political rally. My bride and I often go to counter protests and I can attest that peace protesters are some very violent people.

I can't envision what you have in mind but I presumed that someone shaking their finger at me or poking me in the chest is a matter of escalation. I believe a stab is similar to a punch being thrown which violates the ROE, as does shoving. Jager is trained to interdict those events.

It is a sport dog, I love that video, that guy has a great dog.

I guess it all depends on the dog, the owner etc.

Wow! Awesome video Al. That is hands down my dream dog. I envy those training skills so much!
Just for clarification, would you guys say one of the big differences between "PPD"'s and "sport" dogs are the handler control in sport (being told when to engage, etc) where the true PPD reacts more on instinct? Just curious and hope it may be a relavent question in the thread.

Interesting conversation. I have a 2 yr old Dutch Shepherd, training in SchH. We'll have our BH by October, and SchH 1 as soon as we can get his tracking solid. (my fault, not his) Been told by several qualified trainers he'll easily get to HOT SchH3.

He lives in a 3 bedroom apartment with my 2 children. He's rarely in a crate when everyone is home. Does it take management, and supervision? YES. Is it impossible FOR US? No.

My kids understand the limits. (but will they break them sometimes, sure) The dogs have no toys/bones/objects to guard around the house. If you manage the house, I think it's entirely possible. Kids need rules. Dogs need rules, and parents MUST be attentive.

I do plan to have some realistic PPD work done with Koenig. I will never consider him a PPD dog, and if I ever feel the need to own a PPD, it would NEVER be around kids. Why let the risk happen?

My SchIII, is very safe with my 5 grand kids (5 through 13). Always supervised of course but he'll play fetch with them all day long and is never pushy with them. The 5yr old can actually work him on lead in OB.
My younger untitled GSD can be a pia with the kids simply because he like bowling for babies. No ill intent but he's put up when they come over.
All this being said, there are dogs that, no matter the level of training, shouldn't be around kids or even inexperienced adults.
This is the club I belonged to. No video of Thunder because we left the club before they started with video but plenty of snaps both in Schutzhund and AKC ob.
http://www.rwdc.org

 Quote: webboard user

This weekend we held a fundraiser for the local PD K9 unit. It was a dog wash. 9 dual purpose K9's all washed by...kids. No bites. No growling. Just a good 'ol time raising money for the department.

If a child gets bit by a dog, regardless of breed and training, its the parents, and the lazy dog owners fault.

Brian, two points:
Point number one - Over the years I have run a shocking number of "PPDs" and police canines off the training field - many of these were well socialized canines that tolerated everyone ( and that was one of their selling points) ....but if really put to the test against a hard perp that would fight them, they'd retreat.
And more depts. than you think have dogs that could be considered sub-standard in various areas.

Next, I know of a case where some 10 year olds, basically bad kids, climbed over a well marked wall into a canine compound, and were promptly bitten.
This was the kids fault, and the parents fault.....I'm having trouble seeing where it was in any way "a lazy dog owners" fault.

 Quote: will rambeau

 Quote: webboard user

This weekend we held a fundraiser for the local PD K9 unit. It was a dog wash. 9 dual purpose K9's all washed by...kids. No bites. No growling. Just a good 'ol time raising money for the department.

If a child gets bit by a dog, regardless of breed and training, its the parents, and the lazy dog owners fault.

Brian, two points:
Point number one - Over the years I have run a shocking number of "PPDs" and police canines off the training field - many of these were well socialized canines that tolerated everyone ( and that was one of their selling points) ....but if really put to the test against a hard perp that would fight them, they'd retreat.
And more depts. than you think have dogs that could be considered sub-standard in various areas.

Next, I know of a case where some 10 year olds, basically bad kids, climbed over a well marked wall into a canine compound, and were promptly bitten.
This was the kids fault, and the parents fault.....I'm having trouble seeing where it was in any way "a lazy dog owners" fault.

I agree with the fact that there are plenty of substandard PSD's out there. I too have run more then one man stopper off the field. But thats one of the potential problems with depending on a living, breathing, intelligent thinking animal, isn’t it? They aren’t machines, programmed to react predictably every time. They may have a dozen solid bites on them, then on the thirteenth, something shuts the dog down and he tucks tail. During the dog wash, I know one of the Mals washed by a child has many, many real bites on him. Awesome PSD.

Kids climbing over a fence into someone else’s yard and getting bit, and kids who are raised with working dogs, be it sport or PPD, are two different things. My parents went to court many years back because a kid hopped our fence and one of our Aussies proceeded to inform the child "this isn't your yard". Yet, this same dog was living and loving us 5 kids, without a single incident his whole life. It can be done, and it is done frequently.

Maybe my definition of a PPD is different then yours, and that’s why we don’t agree. I personally think a PPD can be any breed that’ll bark at noises, intruders, or possibly on command, and look intimidating…an early warning system so the owner can deal with the situation appropriately. I wouldn’t count on a dog for my personal safety, and like I said before, one of my GSD’s has bitten for real…twice. He brought the fight, and kept it up until I outted him. Is that even a word? Hmm...I gave him the out command. Anywho, people I train with typically think of a PPD as having impeccable obedience, solid under any circumstance, anywhere, anytime, around anyone, until it is being threatened/attacked, its “pack” is threatened/attacked, or its given its command. Describe what your PPD dogs are…

 Quote: Derek Masterson

Is it possible for a dog to be a house dog (sleep in house, play with children, etc ...) and also train and possibly compete in Schutzhund events?

Also, is it possible to train a dog to provide personal protection but also be a family dog?

Does your pup come from working lines and was the breeder aware this was your intent when you purchased the pup? Pups are a crap shoot even from the finest lines so the chances are even less likely a dog will be able to do the work of a true PPD if it were not specifically bred for it.
Schutzhund might be a good outlet. Have you checked out any clubs in your area? Members of a club can probably give you a decent evaluation of your pup's potential for the sport.

As far as the kids and dog; I won't beat that dead horse. But I will reiterate do not physically correct your puppy or any dog for that matter if you have not taught and proofed the behavior you are asking for.

Why biting sports? I raised my dog with young kids and found agility was a great fit for him and them...just a thought if you are more looking for an outlet for an active dog than sold on any particular activity. Also pictures are always good. I love puppies when they are somebody elses.