If spay/neuter was free the irresponsible people out there still wont take advantage of it.
Spay/neuter aside, nothing take the place of being responsible for your dog.
I don't spay/neuter without a good reason (health)and just not wanting puppies isn't a part of that. That's my responsibility to keep that from happening.

Typed this earlier...got a phone call & forgot to hit submit...

Betty, I haven't eaten veal since I was about 20 & found out how that meat is raised & killed. Made me sick as hell.

Many of the premarin mares are well cared for...but that doesn't mean that they live that great of a life. As for most of the foals well.......And the mares when they can't produce any more...off they go too, by way of the foals. Pretty gross if you ask me. I do understand to need to humainly raise an animal for a food source...but the mares & foals for urine for drugs..& one that can be artifically produced....just doesn't set so well with me.

Many of the horses picked up by the horsekiller around here, are trucked out of state & often over the boarder to Canada, I believe. At least they used to be. That may have changed in recent years.

John...I think the piano box would qualify as a luxury crate...LOL would be too expensive...like a mansion compaired to my cardboard box. If the ecconomy continues to go down..that's where we will be moving to next. :-( My dogs will be happy...they love to be outside most of the time, anyway. haha It's my butt that will be cold.

Both my dogs are intact & live together in my home....no problems with unwanted pups with proper management & property containment. But it is not for the average owner to deal with. But I don't think every dog should necessarily be spayed/nuetered by law. That infringes on MY rights.

If you all knew how much it costs to keep a horse stabled in my area you'd die. About as much as most people pay for a mortgage. Where I last had my guy before he was retired, was an hour or so away from where my house is & it wasn't a fancy show barn. He is retired now & lives in a friends back yard barn, about an hour + away,with her 3 horses on about 4-5 acres.

The show barns in this area are getting 2 mortages + training fees & various other fees added on. Discusting. Wow...I haven't paid $700 boarding fees in 20 years! I couldn't afford to pay even that now.

I always laugh when people talk to me about buying a horse...I always tell they that the purchase is the least of it. It's the boarding & upkeep maintenance that will kill ya. I leased & shareboarded for a number of years & then own for 26+ years. I sacrificed to be able to do it..but don't regret it. It was wonderful! But I couldn't afford to do it now.

It's like a drop in a bucket to keep my dogs compared to a horse. And the dogs on raw eat a healthy diet...sometimes better balanced then mine. Maybe in my box in the woods...they can catch their own meals. :-)

As hard as responsible owners try..there will always be the people that have no problem with dropping a dog, cat,pups on the side of the road & driving off. We are a very disposable society, it seems.

I was horrified to read about the premarin because thats what I was prescribed 12 years ago when I was 36 because the chemo fried my ovaries after the cancer spread, I was told by my GP that it WAS synthetically manufactured because women treated for cancer couldn't have any oestregen compound, I will be making a call to him today...

 Quote: Kelly

So, what does one need to have in the bank in order to have a dog? How much for a horse?

Ok , here goes. I'll try and explain my point of view here. Which in retrospect, I probably should have done in the first place.

It's not a matter of spending copious amounts of money on an animal that gives them a loving home. That's not what I was trying to get across, and I'm sorry you took it that way.

A loving master that can and does meet their basic needs is all they need.

In my opinion, taking on the responsibility of an animal means providing for their basic needs. One of which is medical attention in order to keep the animal healthy. Which is an expense. It's the people that knowingly get animals and put the animals in a situation where their basic needs can't be met is what pisses me off. It's called willfull neglect in my book, and this is one of the reasons why we have the ASPCA. Because of owners not taking care of thier animals properly.

One of the examples to show your point of view is the homeless man with a dog that very well could be a better master then alot of pet owners. Quite honestly, I don't doubt it one bit. A homeless person can love a dog just as easily as a rich one. But, I don't know how things go where your from , but where I'm at dogs with homeless people end up either back in the shelter, injured, sick or dead. I'm sure there's an exception to the rule where 1 out of 1000 is getting his needs met, but Im making a general statement about my area. I deal with the homeless population almost on a daily basis from a law enforcement perspective, and see my fair share of animals.

I'm sure a dog on deathrow would rather be anywhere, including the homeless man that probably can't meet his basic needs. I can tell you another thing about the homeless population where I'm from, they do alot of time in jail for days on end, sometimes weeks, for various repeated offenses. Which leaves their animals where? It gets pretty darn cold around here in the far Northeast.

I know what your trying to get across, and I agree with it. I just have a slightly different view I guess.

Tracey, I would not go ape-shit over the Premarin, really. The place I worked had all draft mares. Until VERY recently (cars) draft mares were always tied if they werent tied to whatever they were pulling. They are kind of suited to the job. They were curried regularily and let out for exercise. They wear a bag to collect the urine. They are allowed to interact with their offspring. They are a part of a herd.
In my personal experience, I am not sure their life is one bit worse than a race horse kept in a 12x12 box. Half of them are wacked out and weaving in the stall, crazy from the confinement. Most of them end up at kill too, only a few can make a living racing. These Premarin mares were relaxed and mellow, like cows. They were kept clean.

Oh right thanks Betty, that has reasurred me somewhat, I had visions of nightmare scenarios in my head..

In my area, the HS provides low cost spay/neuter. (about 20-50 dollars depending on weight.) They also have special events where they provide free services through the year. No pets are adopted out, through the HS or the rescues, without first being spayed/neutered. Also, rescues and the shelter are now working together to decrease the number of euthanized animals. Still, the numbers coming in vs. the numbers adopted out were staggering this past summer. It's so depressing. SOme are surrendered due to death of the owner or strays, but the majority I see are from owners who are very capable of providing vet care and proper training for their pets. They are moving, having babies, don't have the time ect... Litters of Puppies were being put down almost immediately because of numbers or illness. That's how I got my Bru. He was in a shelter and our rescue took his litter in because they were sick and were to be PTS that day. The following story is not the exception, but rather the rule in my experience:

A girl that grew up on the same street as me heard that I was involved in rescue. SHe is very attractive, lives in a nice home and drives a nice car. We are not friends but our families are. She purchases two pups of the same litter from somewhere, a male and a female. She was told they were Shih Tzus when in reality, they turned out to look like 30 lb. retreiver mixes?? At a year old, they had never been seen by a vet, had mated to eachother and were escaping the little chicken wire type enclosure they were kept in through the day. The mother had three pups. This is when she called me.

She wanted to surrender the Mom and puppies but keep the male because, "she loved him so much!" I asked if she could make a small donation to go towards their vet care and she said she didn't have the money. Ok, fine. It took me an hour to round up Mom and pups. When we got to the vet, the Mom was HW positive and none of them were in good condition. From start to finish, the cost to vet them was $800 dollars with our rescue discount. I notified her and told her to vet her male and get him on preventative. THis was about two months ago.

She called me yesterday and asked if we could place the male. I asked if he'd been HW tested, she said, "No but I called the vet and she said that it's not contagious so it wasn't necessary." I really tried to cover, like I always have to do, in order to get the dog outta there! But, I guess I didn't do a very good job. SHe texted a few minutes later and said they'd changed their minds and were keeping him. I've called the pound and asked to watch for him so I can go get him when he shows up.

When I get the weekly stats from the HS, it's people like her that flash in my mind...her in her $200 heels and her brand new suede furniture...making excuses why she has screwed these dogs. I know the economy plays it's part, and irresponsible breeders too, but mostly I see a lot of people out there that are self-centered, indifferent and irresponsible. And you know what?? It goes much deeper than pet ownership...

I had a point and it turned into a rant...sorry.

 Quote: ben mcdonald

I know what your trying to get across, and I agree with it. I just have a slightly different view I guess.

Thank you for explaining, Ben, and I understand your view now. The way your first post sounded was like no poor people should have dogs. I grew up pretty poor - my mom would say we didn't have a pot to piss in or a window to throw it out We also always had a dog.

The dogs we had weren't fixed because mom couldn't afford it. We NEVER had an oops litter and never contributed to the homeless pet population though.

My mom raised 2 kids on about a quarter of what I make. I don't know how she did it. One day, after I had moved out and about a month before she died, she told me that she probably wouldn't have been able to do it if it weren't for the dog. Late at night, when my brother and I were in bed, my mom would talk to the dog about all her problems and it somehow made things better. She told me that her "sessions with the dog" were really the only thing that kept her going.. the weight on her shoulders had been lifted ever so slightly and she was able to get up in the morning and continue.

When my mom died, my brother wanted to give the dog (Ug) away. I refused and took her in because I knew that little ol' Ug was one reason my mom had lived as long as she had... Ug lived with me until one month before her 18th birthday - the day she died was my mom's birthday (April 14). Incidentally, the day my mom died was Ug's birthday (May 13).

Oh Kelly, your story makes me cry! We also did not have enough money to spay our dog growing up, yet never once did she get pregnant. She was also my mom's companion and strength during the hard times. She ate Ol' Roy, never had a city license, and rarely saw the vet, but she was about the happiest dog I have encountered. Spoiled with love.

Janet, very often, the few owner surrenders in my area are very well to do people. Lady wants a fluff ball to carry around, can't house train it, can't stand the hair, kicks it outside to live in isolation and eventually surrenders it when she finally feels guilty enough to find it a home. More often than not they give the "I can't afford a donation" line and then you see them out doing a little retail therapy to ease the sorrow of giving up their dog. Pathetic.
I am very lucky though, our local HS takes all moderately healthy strays from AC. They are currently the fullest they've been all year with 7 dogs up for adoption. They have even began going onto the reservations and taking the unclaimed animals (I have a bit of issue with that, but that would be a whole other topic) The HS Dieks came from also handles animal control. Any unclaimed pets or owner surrenders are immediately put up for adoption after 3 day stray hold.
We have it pretty nice around here so it's hard to even imagine tiny puppies being pts. It absolutely sickens me I wish there was a really good network to get those pups to places like this where there are shortages of puppies for adoption. Also I really feel we should be importing NO MORE dogs from 3rd world countries for rescue until we have taken care of our own. Yes all dogs deserve a chance, but it's crazy to kill so many in our own country and then turn around and import them.

^^^
Good story about Ug.

My dutchie was a rescue from an irresponsible breeder. This guy had too many dogs (but some real nice ones) and didn't take care of them. I am poor, I have a disability, my dog isn't neutered and I have never had a problem with him, he has never mated. He is raw fed, goes to the vet...I train him on an old ragged cotton leash and buy training DVDs when I have some money. He has saved my life before (somehow he knew I has in danger, wasn't with me) and everyday he helps me stay well by forcing me to do something routine. I don't have to, I could just give up, but I love him too much. He is a very healthy 5 y/o, happiest when we are doing something together...I thought I saved him by rescuing but he saved me.