i wouldn't waste time with a fear biter. to many good dog's out there. to have to deal with that kind of problem.

 Quote: john axe

i wouldn't waste time with a fear biter. to many good dog's out there. to have to deal with that kind of problem.

Yeah, and I totally get that. I could mention things about all three of my dogs (maybe already have) that would probably have many people thinking twice about feeding them.

I love all dogs but there’s a lot out there that I wouldn’t care to own either, regardless of who says how wonderful they are. I think the dogs that come into our lives, those that get anchored to heart, do so for a reason.

A knowledgeable awareness of a dog that may have a desire to bite unpredictably out of fear or a solid family dog that gets put down because an overly confident owner had no idea his dog was capable of using his mouth to tell the neighbor’s kid to stop tormenting him.

I believe that dogs live in the moment and are very much a product of their environment. Many dogs get a good start and their lives take a neglectful turn, creating a not so nice temperament in the end. I’ve got a dog that may not have come from the best genetics, compounded by a rough start - many would not have given him a second chance, but I’m seeing what I can do about a good dog in the end.

But then again what’s a good dog? He comes when I call, is completely biddable, a quick learner, energy to burn, no dog on dog issues. One of the most interesting dogs I’ve owned. No, I won’t be parading him around any garden parties and he won’t be working in the protection sports but I couldn’t ask for a more enthusiastic buddy that’s willing to try anything I ask of him.

We’ve done a lot public muzzle work and I’m noticing a real increase in his comfort/confidence level. Not his favorite work but he’s always a willing participant. We’ve already had a few great strategically planned outings without it. And I know I’ll never be able to let my guard down around him in public but I’m comfortable with that role.

Yeah, I could put my energy in a well bred St. Bernard or rescue a Pit Bull that loves everybody but that’s just not on my plate right now. I really like this guy and he seems to enjoy hanging out with me. So I’m going to see what I can do to give him the best life I can, given the cards he was dealt. Hopefully somewhere along the line he learns a thing or two about what society views as social behavior and makes me even prouder of him than I already am.

 Quote: CJ Barrett

 Quote: john axe

i wouldn't waste time with a fear biter. to many good dog's out there. to have to deal with that kind of problem.

Yeah, and I totally get that. I could mention things about all three of my dogs (maybe already have) that would probably have many people thinking twice about feeding them.

I love all dogs but there’s a lot out there that I wouldn’t care to own either, regardless of who says how wonderful they are. I think the dogs that come into our lives, those that get anchored to heart, do so for a reason.

A knowledgeable awareness of a dog that may have a desire to bite unpredictably out of fear or a solid family dog that gets put down because an overly confident owner had no idea his dog was capable of using his mouth to tell the neighbor’s kid to stop tormenting him.

I believe that dogs live in the moment and are very much a product of their environment. Many dogs get a good start and their lives take a neglectful turn, creating a not so nice temperament in the end. I’ve got a dog that may not have come from the best genetics, compounded by a rough start - many would not have given him a second chance, but I’m seeing what I can do about a good dog in the end.

But then again what’s a good dog? He comes when I call, is completely biddable, a quick learner, energy to burn, no dog on dog issues. One of the most interesting dogs I’ve owned. No, I won’t be parading him around any garden parties and he won’t be working in the protection sports but I couldn’t ask for a more enthusiastic buddy that’s willing to try anything I ask of him.

We’ve done a lot public muzzle work and I’m noticing a real increase in his comfort/confidence level. Not his favorite work but he’s always a willing participant. We’ve already had a few great strategically planned outings without it. And I know I’ll never be able to let my guard down around him in public but I’m comfortable with that role.

Yeah, I could put my energy in a well bred St. Bernard or rescue a Pit Bull that loves everybody but that’s just not on my plate right now. I really like this guy and he seems to enjoy hanging out with me. So I’m going to see what I can do to give him the best life I can, given the cards he was dealt. Hopefully somewhere along the line he learns a thing or two about what society views as social behavior and makes me even prouder of him than I already am.

I couldn't agree more. Sometimes the project dogs end up better than the dogs that should be good with everything. And the chance that someone will be happy to help them is far less.

 Quote: connie sutherland

Fear biters can be both born and "made," IMHO.

I'd agree with this. A smart dog learns quickly what works - ie, "I'm scared/unsure, I growl, snap, etc, person backs off" The behavior is rewarded so the behavior continues.

This thread is confusing for me, and maybe because I don't understand the definition of a true fear biter.

I have fostered dogs that have had little human contact and have bitten when they are cornered and scared. THe one in particular that I loved so much had bitten a male worker at the kennel where he ended up before coming to me. They recommended he be put down. I never saw any aggression, but he was fearful in the beginning, and I'm sure he would have bitten me had I been careless. But, he went to a great home with no kids and experienced people, and he's doing beautifully. They continue to work with him on his confidence, but he's doing great. I would have classified him as a fear-biter. Am I wrong?

I think he is well worth the effort. I love him, they love him. I even get to dog-sit this weekend. (No kennels for this guy.)

If you made a choice to deal with the dog then good luck to you two. I bring a dog to work every day so there's no room for nerve problems in my life.

I might have even understood what you're saying awhile ago until Will gave me my Marek (dog in sig pic) Marek opened my eyes that you could have it all and then my dog KC just reinforced that thought.

I'll NEVER own a dog lacking in confidence again but don't hold it against other people if that's what they want, it's not for me though.

M. Ellis didn't do anything wrong, he probably saw a dog fighting for survival instead of enjoying the game. Here's a video of a clear headed dog http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3ghrk_championnat-ring-franche-comte-ulko_news scroll to 3:23 to watch the best object guard ever! A damn ad comes up halfway through but keep it on to see the whole thing, it's worth it.

Incredible performance!! That was really something to watch. Thank you so much for posting that. Absolutely stunning dog as well. He sure knew the rules of that guarding game.

Do those guys not wear gloves at all? The pup gave a couple of warning thrusts towards his hands when he put them really close to his face. Do they never connect with the hands or is the dog aware that they aren’t part of the biting equation? Suit material only?

He got 29 on that. I’m assuming it's out of 30. Where could he have possibly lost a point?

And please don’t get me wrong. I have no reason to doubt Mr. Ellis’s evaluation, nor did I feel put out in any way due to the reality of his words. I am a realist in every sense of the word and wanted a proper assessment of his capabilities, which I feel I got. In fact I have hung onto every word he said. The most impactful being - he’s got weak nerves, is biting out of fear and is dangerous to the sport.

I know very little about these sports only that I felt the behavior my dog was displaying looked dangerous and he wasn't enjoying himself. In fact that was the title of my e-mail to Mr. Frawley - "I think I'm dangerous".

“Fighting for his life” is a very accurate term in what he was displaying in these situations. And since this evaluation, knowing what I’m dealing, he’s been managed to the point that this extreme behavior has not had a chance to rear its ugly head again.

He’s also matured a lot. He was about 16 months old at that time. I’ve noticed some big changes in him over this last year, be it the work we’re doing, the safe, stress free environment he’s in, the large amount of exercise he’s subjected to, his maturity or any combination thereof.

And thank you, I do understand your position on fear biters. Why put up with less when you can have the best. I also appreciate that you respect my position with wanting to see what I can do for this pup of mine.

A few more years and I may also come to your same conclusion but in the meantime I’m really enjoying this guy and he’s coming along nicely. He’s one of the most challenging pup’s I’ve owned and I thank him every day for what he’s teaching me.

As is being shown in this discussion, I don't think it is a simple either/or formulation. When I first started training with Jethro, and was giving corrections that were only teaching him to be annoyed at the corrections rather than learning anything, he started running up the leash toward me. I addressed the problem of my method and modes of handling Jethro and he hasn't been running up the leash since. It seems to me it is a complex combination of genetic propensities, handler/training history, exposure history in relation to developmental stages and current conditions (that may or may not include triggering conditions). I can see how these factors, taken as an evolving combination of experiences over time, can shape a dog's interpretation of a variety of stimuli.

I've been reading John Bradshaw's "Dog Sense: How the New Science of Dog Behavior Can Make You A Better Friend to Your Pet". He writes about the relationship between experiences a puppy has during its 'sensitive period' and the following 'fear period'. He says that things puppies are exposed to during their sensitive period, as long as they are non-threatening, become familiar to the puppy and they don't react to them later. Whatever the puppy has not been 'sensitized' to during that period, will likely trigger a fear reaction during the 'fear period' (pretty much dog adolescence).

This has helped me understand Jethro's dog aggression. There are dogs he met and socialized with before his fear period started (at about 6 months of age). These dogs continue to be his buddies. There are dogs he met at the onset of the fear period, and these dogs, a year later, he continues to have these ballistic reactions to, no matter how much work we continue to do on desensitizing (ie. two blocks away), OB, and management.

In the year Jethro has been training me, I have grown immensely as a dog handler, at least as the dog handler for Jethro.

"I'm going to see what I can do to give him the best life I can given the cards he was dealt" is exactly my line of thinking. I have put HUNDREDS of dogs to sleep and I am sick of it.

C.J, if you already own the dog and you like him. you will be surprised what you can accomplish with training and time. over the years i have dealt with fear biters. it's obedience . when the dog becomes afraid i give him something to think about, if he tries to bite me or someone else, a correction will come. it's like a dog that is afraid of gun fire. i take him to the range and we do ob. he doesn't have time to think about the gunfire i am keeping him busy. you can avoid /disguise or fix the problem, keep him thinking about something. when he thinks on his own, that's when he gets in trouble. if you take the time you probably can get him over most of it, good luck