Ahhhh… feet planted firmly on the ground. Hate flying and not because I’m scared or anything, it’s the feeling of being shuffled around like cattle and the holding pens that drive me crazy.
I amused myself by thinking how fun it would be to have a border collie running around, nipping at the heels of the slower folks, in order to make loading processes go a bit faster.
But enough about me, back to Vince.
I still think, a Fuss or a Sit or some incompatible command would better serve him rather than a Be Nice. Which is just pure correction for no reason (in his mind).
Ram, I get the way you’re thinking here because it was the first thing and is certainly the main thing on my mind as well. All my references to “making this meaningful” to him are my way of expressing this exact concern.
I’ve been through this video a few times trying to get a full understanding of this. And although it’s only a few minutes of this wise man’s philosophy/training, every word that comes out of his mouth has meaning, to me anyway. Perhaps it’s owning a dog with this exact behavior or just Vince in particular, but this man shows a deep insight into this particular aggression (behavior pattern), he knows it well.
Let me try and explain what I’m getting out of this 8 ½ minutes. I’m gonna ramble a bit because it will explain where I’m coming from but bear with me. And if I’m totally off the mark, somebody please, please, please tell me so.
In all my years with dogs and in particular, training sessions with them, we can often get over zealous, ambitious, whatever you want to call it. We train too long and too hard. There comes a saturation point for the dog – he just can’t or doesn’t want to do it anymore. For me, the classic sign is the ears drooping - in a pointy eared dog they flop to the side - like a gizmo creature. I know much better these days - sessions are much shorter and more frequent (and just different) never allowing it to get to this stage, or at least I recognize it immediately if I’ve gone too far.
To me, it’s almost like a complete overwhelming submission. They shut down and only provide robotic movements when practically forced to do so. They want it to stop.
When Mr. Flinks describes the volume in your voice and sincerity (strength) behind the initial command, he says you are looking to have the dog’s ears drop to the sides. He mimics the behavior with his hand flopped outward on either side of his head.
I have spent a long time trying to figure out what he means by this and with my above experience as my only reference point I’ve come to the following conclusion (after hours of head spinning).
Gunshots don’t bother Vince; he could care less about my loud alarm clock and various other loud noises. Personally, I’m a very soft spoken person (so I’m told) not to be confused with a quiet talker though.
I’ve got a loud voice if I needed and know how to use it, been told to stop yelling on a few occasions.
My husband and I learnt very early in our life together that we do not argue in front of the dogs – yeah, yeah we’re not perfect but I must say, we’re pretty darn good these days. In any case, when we did and the yelling stopped, we’d see uncomfortable dogs off in a corner – ears low, draped to the sides. Confusion, fear, cowering from the unexpected behavior of these “intense” humans and we hadn’t gone anywhere near them. They were not going to make one false move without the energy lowering to more relaxed state.
So in my correlation to what Mr. Flinks is saying here is that you need to come across as serious as a heart attack. The command “Be Nice”, as I kind of alluded to previously, WOULD come across as “Do it and Die” to Vince (in my mind anyway).
I’m hoping to exude that intense energy (not the arguing kind but an extreme seriousness) that says I mean business. Hopefully the kind that Vince understands as “Oh shit – what’s this?”, to the point the ears drop out of the cautious respect for what he’s hearing, fear of the unknown, what have you.
As the person approaches, he will have already been knocked off his feet so to speak. Should he choose to disregard that initial “vibe” and “whatever the heck it was that mom just said to him” he will learn in the next few seconds exactly what was meant, with the command being repeated at the exact same time the sky is falling down on him.
As I said earlier too, it does not seem fair. It didn’t to the dog in the video either but I don’t see any other way of instilling something like this, in dogs with this particular behavior anyway.
It’s once, it’s swift, it’s severe and hopefully to a dog with any ability to make associations it should not take more than once to associate the command with the intense energy coming from the human and his “behavior” that put the harsh reality and meaning into what lay ahead once the command was given, should he choose to make a move. (Gosh that’s an ugly sentence, I hope it makes sense).
I don’t know, that’s my interpretation of what I’m seeing. I would love to talk to that man. But with what I’ve said here and knowing the dog lying at my feet, I have a feeling this is the approach I’ve been looking/waiting for. It just makes so much sense – to me, with the behavior and dog I’m dealing with.
What your proposing is a bad idea. The training you have given him up to this point is to be indifferent. You could completely reverse it by training any type of aggression command cue.
Hey Ben, and this is the thing, where my version of the training would differ, ever so slightly. I have absolutely no intention of putting any aggression on cue, hence my question about the “alert”, is it necessary to make this training work?
As the training goes on, the dog in the video does have an alert command. I think with the actual “bite work/protection sports/police dog” type training (which I have absolutely NO intention of doing) the dog needs to know the right time/place to perform the action/aggression that is a large part of this type of training.
Vince does not need to know how to “turn back on”. I simply want to put the “non-aggressive” side of him on cue during the times of high distraction where he could potentially have an unpredictably intense reaction to people.
I would be training him for total indifference towards people, up to and including touch. Try training an aggressive dog to be indifferent to touch, that's enough work in and of itself.
And see Ben, the way I look at it, this may be an outcome. I could not go anywhere near this type of training without dealing with this aggressive behavior first.
And I must make something perfectly clear. I don’t want or care to have people touching Vince now, there’s just no need. He’s my dog, he doesn’t care for it, it’s just not necessary. For those rude people that feel they have some kind of entitlement or right to pet a dog, I have no problem telling them it’s not going to happen with Vince. Where I would like to see a touch in place in at the vet (and a couple other scenarios I can think of) and in order to get there I will have to do some training in that respect.
If I attempt to instill this command and should those efforts result in settling his desire to lash out, as we move forward, much like the training of this command, I would also solicit the assistance of trusted and willing acquaintances to help me with this. Muzzle at first to judge the comfort level and so on.
Right now, to me this is a pointless effort in futility if the aggressive desire is still there. Having people attempt to touch him now would be like asking people to put their hand in a rattlesnake pit.
Have you got any thoughts on how I could go about teaching this “indifference to touch” without dealing with the aggression first?
I would think long and hard on how Vince handles pressure and stress, and what activities really work on alleviating that stress.
I can’t begin to tell you how long and hard I’ve thought about this. I know this boy inside out, except where these temporary lapses in judgment are stemming from – and even feel I have a pretty good understanding of those.
He’s on cue and under control in the seconds before the reaction, he’s removed during, and completely under control the second after.
And like I’ve said, with all the work we’ve done, he’s really is a level headed boy that welcomes new challenges. He’s eager to learn and is about as obedient as they come in all other aspects.
How his mind works is complicated as you have seen over the years, because of his nature how he will react during any type of aggressive training is a big unknown, and not worth the risk IMO.
He is a complicated boy; however, over the years his mysteries are unraveling. I would describe him simply as complex these days. And this is why I have to type so darn much. Just trying to put him into words has me thinking a course in rocket science might not be so tough after all.
And as far as the “aggressive training” approach; I appreciate your perspective on this. It’s a tough situation. And this is why I’m posting. Hoping to get a bit more understanding of what the actual consequences might be or if there’s a way to apply the same meaning with a different approach.
I do know and care very deeply for this dog though. If the scales (in my mind) weren’t tipping in favor of him being able to comprehend and handle the stress needed to provide that understanding, I wouldn’t even be considering it.
This is why sport dogs and even more so PPD's are given a very close examination for proper temperament before they start training.
Yes, I so fully understand this. And while this training is a piece of a process from a well known protection dog trainer, it is simply the small piece in his training, used to suppress aggression, that I’m looking at.
A man that so successfully works with this much aggressive behavior has got to have a good understanding of how to shut it down, when necessary.
Vince is NOT going to go on to deal with the complicated, pressure filled training that is necessary to create the reliable, protection dogs required for these venues.
I don’t want or need a protection dog (I have guns
) and the sports are completely out of the picture for him. I simply want a level headed companion that doesn’t feel the need to ward off approaching strangers - aggressively.
Positive reinforcement without corrections is the route to stay on with the least amount of stress for him. It's about what's best for him after all.
And yes, I couldn’t agree with this more. This is why I’m having a difficult time with the incompatible command approach. He’s got an incredible sit and down, proofed in many situations. He’s not going anywhere as long as a stranger doesn’t approach him.
I’m afraid physical corrections, for breaking a sit or down in this type of situation, would need to be applied with the same intensity (while he’s independently reacting to and focused on the threat), if I was going to approach it in this manner, in order to deal with it head on. Gosh, another ugly sentences but I don’t know how else to say it.
Yup, rocket science 101, here I come, it just can’t be this complicated.
But I would like to be by his side, with his full understanding that we are facing this and we're doing it together.
This is the only situation where I can foresee ever needing to use corrections on this boy. And it’s the only situation I want to even think about using a correction on him. He just does not need them. We train to an ever increasing level of understanding and he just gets it. He always tries so hard to do what’s being asked of him. He’s really is an incredible dog.
But because of the nature, intensity and ingrained behavior pattern of this human aggression, fear whatever you want to call it, it’s got “tough love” written all over it for me. And in trying to take this burden off his shoulders, “cruel to be kind” comes to mind as well. I just don’t know.
This has been an engaging thread...one near and dear to my heart...and one with thoughtful, respectful replies.
Sharon, it’s funny. When I popped open the site this morning and saw this thread sitting there simply saying “Be Nice” it had a lot of different meanings staring back at me for a split second. I had no idea what I might find posted inside but you are so right, the replies are thoughtful and respectful.
I think Mr. Flinks really knew what he was talking about with this command. It doesn’t need a lot of explaining and seems to command a way of interacting pleasantly. Let this be a lesson to those sheepish folks out there - just name your thread appropriately and the rest will probably fall into place.
Just kidding of course, but for such a controversial idea, you’re right, I’m so glad to have the opportunity to at least get my thoughts out without being told I’m completely off the wall... yet. And if that’s case, I would really appreciate hearing that too.
And as far as Vince being lucky, well I can’t tell you the amount of times I’ve just stared at him and thanked him for being who he is. He has taught me so much. Like the price of aspirin is actually more expensive than Tylenol and doesn’t have near the headache relief. But truly, this boy has been a welcome challenge that continues to amaze me every day. He’s taught me things about myself that only the sensitive nature of a powerful boy like him could.
Thank you so much for saying that though, it really is nice to hear.
And Ram is so right. They are dogs that place deep meaning on their every action. They give respect where they feel it’s due, ask absolutely nothing of others and simply command their respect in return. Left to his own devices, he’d have no problem teaching a few members of the public how inappropriate their advances are. Unfortunately, his teaching methods wouldn’t get him far. And this is why I’m hoping to figure out something that will.
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