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I don't think a dog goes thru a long thought process like a human would. I don't think Mondo thinks: "That intruder could eat our food or kill my meal-tickets....shit, I could starve to death!"

It may seem goofy, but all that could be spinning around in his coconut.Not in the same way it does with a person, but defense in a dog is basically a fear response. Every different dog can have it triggered by different things. Some will run right away, some will come forward and bluff, some will bite. A lot of the time, they may just be trying to figure out whats going to work.

Your other dogs have learned the intruders are welcome and there's no reason to be defensive. Mondo is confused, his experience hasnt led to anything good, he doesnt know he can stay inside and avoid the boogie man, so there's still going to be a trial period for him.

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Also, Mondo is becoming much better outside the house, but worse at the house. If they are both fear, why would that be? In both cases, the object of his fear leaves, so why doesn't he get more aggressive away like he did at home? I think even in my inept, slow way, he is being desensitized to people outside the house.

Just as a guess, you've been more consistant away from home as far as training so he is looking to you for guidance there, not thinking for himself. Being aware of his problems, probably has you being more proactive whereas at home, most things can be unpredictable. Dogs do better with predictable.

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But then what the emotion is may make the difference between making the situation much better or worse, so it gets very difficult. Hence my continued talking/thinking about it.

The emotions are all yours. Mondo doesnt have emotions. Your panic when he tried to bite that person only made his reactions worse.As far as which collar, your emotions have a lot to do with that along with your timing.Its not as simple as one being the right or wrong collar.

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Mondo was scared at first, but now he's confident. If you could have seen the difference between the first time (several feet away from the man, barking but moving back and forth, allowed me to grab him easily) and the last time (very close to the man, leaping, not allowing me to grab him, circling him to try and get past his "weapon"), I think you might think the same thing.

No, I wouldn't have thought that Rovena. I would have thought, sh*t, this is getting even worse. Anyway, these types of discussions are tough. Everything I'm saying to you could be completely contradicted by someone else and we could both turnout being wrong.

Thats why I like to just keep everything simple and focused on training. For me management at home like your fence and steady,structured, consistant obedience, all the time will teach him to look to you for direction and not think for himself in every situation. Thats the difference between getting into trouble and not getting into trouble. If you focus on training questions,you can get some constuctive and useful ideas.

" ... steady,structured, consistant obedience, all the time will teach him to look to you for direction and not think for himself in every situation. Thats the difference between getting into trouble and not getting into trouble. If you focus on training questions,you can get some constuctive and useful ideas."

Well said.

I should have skipped all the Culver City quote & paste.

"Mondo was scared before, now he's confident"


I'm actually going to agree with this. The problem is when a fear full dog becomes more confident with his aggression toward someone it means that he's closer to making a bite. It's a false confidence!
True confidence means the dog isn't going to over react to the situation.

You can get the hump of you like Rovena, if you feel 'judged' well thats your own perception of what I said, I have first hand knowledge of dogs placed in the wrong sort of home, for whatever reason, often the shelter is full, the people running it have actually no food for the dogs so they are putting them to sleep, so the dogs that ARE lucky enough to get placed deserve the very best placement they can get.

I rehomed a dog over a year ago with the best of intentions, my heart shouted louder than my head, and the consequences of my well meaning but ignorant actions resulted in Kaiser being at the mercy of my mentally ill and aggressive younger dog, that dog was pts, and I am still racked with guilt over it, Kaiser is none the worse for wear now, thank god, and is part of a happy and disciplined pack, I NEVER assume it will always stay this way, and work on ob every single day, exercise them till they drop and take on board all advice I get from experienced Boerboel owners.

I don't apologize for being honest about your situation as I see it, you have come to a board full of really experienced and wise people (I am NOT one of them), and yet you are still justifying what is happening with your dog instead of listening and implementing.

I could give a toss if you ignore me, but when I see constant dismissing of damn good advice and insight, it irritates the hell out of me.

I hope you find the help you are looking for, your dog will benefit from it, even if it ruffles your feathers.

 Quote: Anne Jones

It's the information here & not always the delivery that is important to heed.

I know; I was thinking about that, and I probably have way too much talk against the speculative things I don't agree with, but I always get something out of the discussion. It's just when the advice is always prefaced with that, it's hard (for me) to ignore. Actually, I was thinking that is people delivered their advice with less convincing of exactly why they think the dog is doing it, it be accepted better, but I realize that probably wouldn't be taken in the spirit of just a little feed-back on my experience here, so I thought I better keep my mouth shut. Don't know who all will read this paragraph.

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A number of us (myself included) have had seriously fear aggressive dogs. It is not a fun thing to deal with. Not for the owner & not for the dogs. It is a terrible place/state of mind to be in for the dog. The potential liability that owning that kind of dog is very serious. No matter how careful & experienced you are in dealing with this issue....things CAN & DO happen. A 50,60,70lb dog going forward agressively out of fear is a very serious matter to deal with. When these dogs 'wigg out' they are mentally blind, def & crazy. They care nothing for or about you or your safety. You can be injured during one of these episodes....pulled to the ground & dragged even bitten if the dog redirects to you. The fear is NOT something that is EVER erradicated. It can be managed, desentizied to some degree etc but it is always there & given the 'right' trigger can reappear at any time. Their default is to lash out in fear.

Owning a dog like that it is not a place that I care to revisit. JM 2 cents FWIW.

Lol, I keep saying bye but I don't go away.

You know, the more I hear about the kind of dogs some people are dealing with, I'm starting to think that it's very difficult for people to evaluate something like this from a distance with a limited description by a non-expert, and that there are a lot more complexities than a simple diagnosis of "fear-biter".

I don't think Mondo is wigging out. Let me describe again the last incident. I was not letting him out alone until what I thought was late in the evening, well after dark, but for some crazy reason a UPS man came after 8:00, and he was a different one than usual.

I hear Mondo barking in an aggressive way. I immediately ran outside. Mondo was barking at and jumping towards and circling a UPS man. Luckily, the UPS man was young and fast, and he had a computer-thing in his hand that Mondo thought could hurt him, because the man pointed it right at him and that looked like the only thing that was keeping back, because Mondo kept trying to get around it.

I start yelling at Mondo (stupid, I know, but now I know better). I try to grab him, but he kept just slipping out of my hands (me not being as fast as Mondo and the delivery man). The man couldn't get away because Mondo wouldn't let him back up. So instinctively I just dropped to the ground; I just didn't know what to do. If I'd had a gun on me, I might have shot him (Mondo, not the man.) Mondo immediately ran to me, and I grabbed his collar. As soon as I had a hold of him, Mondo quit trying to get the man, because he knew I wouldn't him. He was panting, but physically calm, not squirming around, not looking scared, alert and looking at the man, who ran out of the yard. When he was gone, I let Mondo go, and he ran a few feet in that direction, but stopped and came back when I called him.

Does that sound like a dog out of its mind with fear? I'm not an expert, but I've had a lot of dogs, and been around a lot of dogs, and I've seen scared dogs, and yes Mondo seemed too scared to attack the first UPS man, but I don't think he was scared anymore the time above.

I think there are a lot more complexities than a lot of people aren't taking into account. Mondo was a year old when he went into the shelter, and he was there for 8 months. I thought he was surprisingly emotionally healthy. If UPS men hadn't come, I never would have had any idea he could potentially be dangerous. Yes he was scared of people on walks sometimes, but that got better over time, and it's not an out-of-control kind of fear, just something a lot of dogs do in certain situations. The fact that it got much better without any specific plan by me I think shows that he isn't really that insanely fearful.

With me, he was always puppyish and playful. He wants to mouth the cats sometimes, and I've corrected him (by saying "don't bite the cat") so many times that now he turns his head when they pass him. If he wants to bother them when they are eating, I just have to say like, "eh", and he turns away. If I'm eating, he stays back and turns into major puppy-dog eyes. When I take him to his kennel, he walks very calmly and goes in very nicely, then just looks up at me. (He doesn't want to go, I can tell, but he does anyway.)

There are a lot of people in the world who just live with their dogs instinctively, as people have been doing for thousands of years. Of course knowledge is very, very helpful; learning how to really train well is great, this new (?) method of clicker-training obviously works whether or not you've done all the pack-leader exercises, and it works even when you suck at it, like I do. The things that empirically work may do so for different reasons than you are all speculating.

Somebody was commenting on me not being able to teach him the difference between sit and down, which was something he did when I got him. Well, I got off the computer and taught him. Today, I'll have to remind him, but he'll know it, and in a few days he'll know it all the time. That's he learns. That's why I think a very young shelter dog could be fearful the first time they guard the house, but very quickly learn they really don't have to be scared of people who come into the yard.

Mondo is not living a miserable existence, not by far. My BF laughed when I told him you guys said that, given the time, attention, walking, etc I do with him. We are not stupid people. We are both middle-aged professionals with a history of many other pets. This simplistic "you're not a good pack leader and your dogs is suffering" stuff is just silly, I'm sorry. He's not well-trained, I realize that, but you guys surely know there are a lot of people with dogs that are somewhat dangerous in certain circumstances in the world. He's not even the worst I've seen, not by far.

Isn't it possible that I got a young dog who came from a background where he didn't learn a lot, but who was basically psychologically sound, and smart enough to learn what he does and doesn't need to be afraid of, and happens to be a breed that has a high guarding instinct? He's not neurotically reactive to things.

In some ways, with his extreme playing and chewing and destruction of his bed, etc. when I got him, which quickly faded, it was almost like he was developmentally delayed, but quickly grew thru it, like a child that was in a bad environment but then who develops quickly when taken out of it. (Not that the shelter was bad; I think they do a really good job, but it's just very difficult.)

I guess this is where I finally feel compelled to say something. It always amazes me to hear about these aggressive shelter dogs. I don't know what it's like where you are but around here, if a dog that ends up in a shelter is tagged with the slightest form of aggression, they don't get any further.

As has been pointed out, there are too many without any form of aggressive tendencies being put to sleep, why would they even consider allowing one of these out in the general population.

This dog spent a fair amount of time in the shelter, without incident. I believe you even returned for a visit and he was really happy to see the staff.

As Tracey has pointed out, this also seems to me like a placement that's taken some wrong turns. Personally, and I'm sure this won't be popular but I don’t think this is fear aggression. To me it's more like aggressive confusion.

He's been plopped in a yard, where the home dogs run around barking at people passing by (whatever that's telling him) and he's been randomly rewarded for growling and barking. Really, how could he result in anything different? The difference between him and your other dogs is that he's got the confidence to follow through and do what he's perceiving is expected of him.

Now add ill timed prong collar corrections, when confronting random humans, performing this taught behavior, instead of clicking and rewarding and this dog probably has a ton of fear that's surfacing. To me it's through confusion though, not temperament.

And I might as well mention that the title of your thread is a bit disturbing to me too. It inadvertently puts blame on the shelter and has the potential to damage the reputation of the incredible sacrifices shelter staff make, not to mention the amazing dogs that do make it through their systems, waiting patiently in their cages for the right owner to come along.

"Smart dog, inexperienced owner - What went wrong?", would sit better with me, but that's irrelevant at this point. Have you talked to the shelter about what you're experiencing? I'll bet they'd be really surprised to hear what's going on and if you had a gun, you would have shot him? This pup needs rehab and it doesn’t sound like he started out that way.

I hope you stick around Rovena. Folks here can help.

Train the sit command property and implement "Nothing in Life is Free", I'm sure someone's got a good link to that. Your other dogs could probably benefit from a bit more structure too.

No more confusion. Do what I ask, when I ask and we move no further until you do. Put him in a back room when visitors come over. He needs successful interactions with you, understanding what your expectations are (which means you would have to implement some) and you need to learn about him before other humans are introduced into the mix.

It's great that he's out of the shelter and for the most part enjoying life with you in the country. I really hope you get a handle on this because if he was returned now, things probably would not go as favorably for him.

It sounds like you're up for the challenge though and I give you a lot of credit for sticking this out.

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Isn't it possible that I got a young dog who came from a background where he didn't learn a lot, but who was basically psychologically sound, and smart enough to learn what he does and doesn't need to be afraid of, and happens to be a breed that has a high guarding instinct? He's not neurotically reactive to things

My money is on smart but unsure. Confident dogs don't bark their heads off and avoid their owner. They have a presence about them more than a bark and charge reaction.

The problem is, the more that the crazy bark and scare the scary person off routine works (the UPS guy stopped, right? so in you dog's eyes, it worked) the more it's reinforced and the greater potential to escalate. So it needs to be very clear to the dog what is expected of it (through training and leadership)

I kinda think you just got a lot more dog that you are used to. Some dogs can be treated as pets (ie, not too much management, a walk a couple times a day and then just hang out) and do just fine. Others need lots of training, structure and leadership to be successful. If these dogs get that, they're great, if not, it's a train wreck...

 Quote: steve strom

It may seem goofy, but all that could be spinning around in his coconut.Not in the same way it does with a person, but defense in a dog is basically a fear response. Every different dog can have it triggered by different things. Some will run right away, some will come forward and bluff, some will bite. A lot of the time, they may just be trying to figure out whats going to work.

Yes, I understand. I was also thinking that maybe at home, feeling "cornered" can happen in a much bigger area than someplace else.

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Your other dogs have learned the intruders are welcome and there's no reason to be defensive. Mondo is confused, his experience hasnt led to anything good, he doesnt know he can stay inside and avoid the boogie man, so there's still going to be a trial period for him.

He seemd to not be confused by the last time.

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Just as a guess, you've been more consistant away from home as far as training so he is looking to you for guidance there, not thinking for himself. Being aware of his problems, probably has you being more proactive whereas at home, most things can be unpredictable. Dogs do better with predictable.

Yes. The were very few home incidents, they were incredibly poorly managed by me (hearing him bark, incident already in progress, yelling at him, etc.)

Away from home, no big deal, we step aside for people, I knew enough to tell them to ignore him, he calms down (if he was acting scared in the first place, which wasn't every time, and has now decreased further.)

At first, he barked at people when he was in the car, but he quickly figured out that is not necessary. Once after a couple months or so, we went to town, were stopped at a red light, and Mondo was in the passenger seat, in a seat-belt (now I make him ride in the backseat.) Two people were approachign the intersection from his side. They were all bundled up in the cold, had hats on, and were walking straight towards him. I saw him get alert, but I told him it was OK, thoese people weren't after us, etc. in a calm way, and it worked. He relaxed and just let them go by. These kind of experiences tell me that he is not neurologically screwed up, and could possible learn that when I tell him that it's OK, don't attack, he will listen. (Not that I ever want to test that.)

I really am not a complete dumb-ass who has got some kind of incredibly damaged animal and am trying to reahabilitate him or something. I an experienced ameteur with practically a puppy that seems to be very emotionally healthy in almost every way and who is able to learn, even when in what he thinks may be a dangerous situation and it is handled unexpertly. The home incidents were just complete catastrophes, and I recognize that. I have considered the risk/benefit ratio including the chances of a person getting hurt, which believe me, I do not want to happen. I reailze that hte people here are coming from a perspective of seeing a lot of bad things happen, and feel it is their duty to protect humans and dogs, which I really do appreciate, caring about both myself.

I could compare me seeing a kid get on a snow-mobile: I'd like to run over, yank them off, ask the parents if they know how dangerous it is, then destroy the snow-mobile. But I can't do that. If they ask me my opinion, I would tell them, just as you are telling me. Then I guess we have to hope the people are smart enough to do the right thing.

I love dogs, but I'm not into "rescuing" dogs unsuitable to be pets. My dogs were getting old, and I wanted one who could do outdoor stuff with me. I'm not that ignorant; I know that some dogs are, unfortunately, hopeless.

The trainer I had for a while, after he got used to her (it only took one session, when done right), realized what a fun, smart dog he was and was looking forward to training him. She gave me the same exact warnings as you, was hesitant about continuing, but realized that I really was handling things. (I had to tell her to quit coming because I just couldn't handle saying no to him when he's hanging off her jacket. I quickly taught him not to bite my clothing, but I had to be able to say "no".)

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The emotions are all yours. Mondo doesnt have emotions. Your panic when he tried to bite that person only made his reactions worse.As far as which collar, your emotions have a lot to do with that along with your timing.Its not as simple as one being the right or wrong collar.

I'm sorry, but I don't believe dogs don't have emotions. I do know they are very perceptive and attuned to humans and follow their lead, especially if the human becomes scared, doesn't know how to act in the situation, etc.

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No, I wouldn't have thought that Rovena. I would have thought, sh*t, this is getting even worse. Anyway, these types of discussions are tough. Everything I'm saying to you could be completely contradicted by someone else and we could both turnout being wrong.

I do think it was getting worse. That's why I took a week off work and had a six-foot fence built and remodeled the garage. Believe me, he can't get to people, not even if somebody comes in my front door. They would have to make a special effort, which I realize still might not be safe in some places, but it's very unlikely to happen where I live and with the location of the fenced-in yard.

Yes of course; none of the things being said that are speculative about the mind of a dog and not based on evidence can be taken to be fact. That's why I have such a problem being told this is a pack-leader problem. Dogs are much more complicated than that (IMO), and this is a training issue, and evidence-based training advice and advice on whether or not it is likely to work based on past experience is helpful.

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Thats why I like to just keep everything simple and focused on training. For me management at home like your fence and steady,structured, consistant obedience, all the time will teach him to look to you for direction and not think for himself in every situation. Thats the difference between getting into trouble and not getting into trouble. If you focus on training questions,you can get some constuctive and useful ideas.

Yes.

 Quote: CJ Barrett

I guess this is where I finally feel compelled to say something. It always amazes me to hear about these aggressive shelter dogs. I don't know what it's like where you are but around here, if a dog that ends up in a shelter is tagged with the slightest form of aggression, they don't get any further.

I don't think he was aggressive there. I don't think they knew at all. I think Mondo matured a whole lot in a few months when put into a normal environment, and became the kind of dog he is now.

He didn't seem scared at the shelter when I picked him up. He was wild as anything. He came flying out of that place, and I said, "Hi Mondo!", and he looked at me, spotted the toy in my hand, ran over, snatched it, and proceeded to destroy it. I could barely get him to look at me, so I was a little hesitant about taking him, but he very quickly bonded to me, and now (inside, still working on outside), he is very attentive and never ignores me.

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To me it's more like aggressive confusion.

Why confusion? Haven't dogs for thousands of years been aggressive to people who approach their dwelling? Everybody seems to make it so much more complicated than it is. Occam's razor.

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Now add ill timed prong collar corrections, when confronting random humans, performing this taught behavior, instead of clicking and rewarding and this dog probably has a ton of fear that's surfacing. To me it's through confusion though, not temperament.

Most of the time, he had a regular collar on. I only got the prong collar very recently (you can check the records), and don't pull it. Him and my other big dog were just wearing out my arms, and I needed them to walk better. (He's better than she is, actually, and I'm going to get one for her, or put his on her.) The only time he felt the prong collar was when some people in my neighborhood with pomeranians walked by, who my other dog hates (the only thing in the worlds she hates is those pomeranians), and he pulled with her, yelped a little, and stopped pulling.

He's not confused, just untrained. He doesn't like people to approach the house. He doesn't mind if people walk by the house. I think he has learned that people outside the house are OK, but more experience with that will tell for sure.

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And I might as well mention that the title of your thread is a bit disturbing to me too. It inadvertently puts blame on the shelter and has the potential to damage the reputation of the incredible sacrifices shelter staff make, not to mention the amazing dogs that do make it through their systems, waiting patiently in their cages for the right owner to come along.

Can you please change that? Thanks.

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I hope you stick around Rovena. Folks here can help.

Train the sit command property and implement "Nothing in Life is Free", I'm sure someone's got a good link to that. Your other dogs could probably benefit from a bit more structure too.

No more confusion. Do what I ask, when I ask and we move no further until you do. Put him in a back room when visitors come over. He needs successful interactions with you, understanding what your expectations are (which means you would have to implement some) and you need to learn about him before other humans are introduced into the mix.

It's great that he's out of the shelter and for the most part enjoying life with you in the country. I really hope you get a handle on this because if he was returned now, things probably would not go as favorably for him.

It sounds like you're up for the challenge though and I give you a lot of credit for sticking this out.

Thank you very much. I'm really not into wasting my time torturing hopeless-case dogs. I recognize something in him that the trainer did as well, and I think he could be trained to do anything, if it's done correctly. I love all the stuff I've learned about dogs and training, especially at this site, and I do have the time, resources, etc. at this point in my life to do these things.

Please take out any references to the shelter, and where I mentioned their name. I don't want to reflect badly on them. That is a great place, I really do think it is, in a little not very well-off place; people who really care about animals doing the best they can. And I am very grateful to them for bringing Mondo into my life; he is lot of fun. He charmed my dog-neutral BF, and he is cautious, risk-averse person. He knows the set-up now is safe.

I will do what you advise. I will come back perioidically to let you know if it's working, just for some feedback to everybody on what happened. I'm going to look again for a good trainer in my area. (If anybody knows one in the Rhinelander/Minocqau/Eagle River area of WI, please let me know.)