Quote: Connie Sutherland

What don't you get?

 Quote: Duane Hull

 Quote: Katie Finlay

You're not getting it.

IMO, there's a method the OP has yet to try, and I don't think his "Out" or "Drop it" is as reinforced as it could be.

I DID understand everything you said, and agreed with most of it.

Then that's the difference. I'm giving the OP the benefit of the doubt here. We aren't ever going to know how this dog is trained without seeing it being trained. ... I should just go back to my other forum, LOL!


No, you have a very valid point. Sometimes correcting is the simplest (and best) way to go.

Also, about back-chaining .... the "out" is not what I meant about breaking down and back-chaining. It was the whole fetch command. The out is a link in that chain.


PS
I didn't go back over other threads of the O.P.'s and have no idea of any training, etc. Just going by this one O.P., which seems to be about a casual game of frisbee.

Yeah, I think we're just viewing it different ways. You see a game of fetch, I see a dog disobeying a command.

You think the OP has missed something in the foundation, I'm assuming the OP has not. So we're addressing it different ways.

Eta. I don't have a fetch command. Conan did it naturally. Danni was taught with two ball. It was the phasing out the second ball for Danni and the outing on both dogs I had a problem with. I felt it easier (and more useful in other situations) to teach a reliable out than back-chain a fetch.

He's only had 7 posts, this is the first one training related. He got his dog at 9mos from a trainer who sold him as trained. He joined a local dog training club, but its not clear if they are familiar with a dog like this.

I think he's about 16mos now, but don't know much about foundation or his current training.

 Quote: Katie Finlay

Yeah, I think we're just viewing it different ways. You see a game of fetch, I see a dog disobeying a command.

You think the OP has missed something in the foundation, I'm assuming the OP has not. So we're addressing it different ways.

Yup, I think that's exactly right!

I admit that on the internet, with something like this (a game in the yard, as opposed to a dangerous situation), I usually start with the assumption that something in the foundation was skipped or went awry .... I guess I figure that we can always return to the correction question.

And I absolutely get what you're saying.

Hey AJ, if you read this, what do you want exactly? Do you want to train a formal retrieve now or sometime later, or just get him to spit that frisbee?

 Quote: steve strom

Hey AJ, if you read this, what do you want exactly? Do you want to train a formal retrieve now or sometime later, or just get him to spit that frisbee?

Excellent question!

 Quote: steve strom

He's only had 7 posts, this is the first one training related. He got his dog at 9mos from a trainer who sold him as trained. He joined a local dog training club, but its not clear if they are familiar with a dog like this.

I think he's about 16mos now, but don't know much about foundation or his current training.

See! That's why I'm lazy, someone else will always do the homework for me!

What Steve said!

If the Frisbie is this dogs ultimate reward then you need another frizbie. I might even drop the frisbie playing for a while and use it ONLY for reward...that is with marker training and back chaining.

Teach the hold and out command with markers and the frisby as reward only. Only when you have consistent compliance with those two should you try with the frisbie. Even then I wouldn't toss it EVER until you get a solid hold and out with it. Putting the two together before one or the other is only partially done will only compound the situation. Every time the dog refuses an out your only reinforcing the fact that it CAN refuse.
Using the e-collar for just a game wouldn't be my choice but I don't use them any way.

With marker training your using the dogs drives to get compliance.
With back chaining, your STARTING with the out/drop-it problem, and not just tossing and hoping for the best.

Wow. The last time I looked at this thread yesterday it had no responses. Now it has 4 pages worth of conversation! I'll see if I can address everyone's comments.

Just to clarify, I'm new to dog training so I'm sure that I have messed up on some foundation work somewhere. I've joined the local dog training club but we are currently working on foundation work so we haven't gotten to anything like this problem yet. And as was said before, I bought Aragon from a trainer so most of his foundation work was done before me. The only problem is that he was trained with the name deleted method which I don't agree with so I have been moving him to marker training (I should have researched that before I bought Aragon, I know). So he basically didn't have much foundation in marker training it was all compulsion training which can obviously lead to some confusion on the dog's part now that I'm doing it differently. Luckily he is tranitioning well.

I have not tried two frisbee's yet. It's funny because after I posted that yesterday I thought about the two frisbee's idea (it seems so obvious now, I don't know why I didn't think about it before) so I went out and bought another frisbee yesterday. Then I come back on here today and see that most people have recommended the two frisbee approach. So I'll try that tonight but I'm optimistic that may solve my problem.

Aragon's retrieve is good but that is because he recall is good. I don't have a problem with him coming back to me I just have a problem with him dropping the frisbee on command. The frisbee is the only thing that he won't drop. If he picked up a piece of bacon that my kids dropped on the floor he will drop that on command, but not his frisbee.

I am uncomfortable using the e-collar for this because I have to crank it way up to break through the distraction of the frisbee and I want playing with the frisbee to be a fun time with minimal punishment. And to be honest I have tried it and it didn't help solve the problem. He would just yelp, drop the frisbee, I would throw it again and then would just start the whole process over again. Also, this is only a game for us. It's just something we do for fun so I'm not looking for a formal retrieve I just want him to spit the frisbee so that we can continue the game. I'm hoping the additional frisbee will show him that the game is not ending.

I have not tried back chaining and to be honest I don't fully understand back chaining so it looks like I'll have to do some research. As always, tips and links to other information is always appreciated. I am a newbie to this after all!

Edited by Connie Sutherland (05/23/2012 11:11 AM)
Edit reason: delete name