Laurie, have you tried supplementing with a probiotic and enzymes yet?
I think it's possible that the dogs tract might need a little boost with these.
There is one that I really like from Animal Essentials ;
http://www.animalessentials.com/#products:63

It has both plant enzymes and probiotics.
It is something I especially recommend for new raw feeders.
It's good for all foods, kibble or raw fed.
I also like the plain pumpkin for getting the stool more balanced.
You can feed both, and that should help a lot.

Probiotics, yes. Enzymes, no. Thanks for the suggestion!

 Quote: Laurie Hill

Well, I have found that after feeding her chicken back pieces and wings yesterday, she is still pooping out chunks of bone, and yet the rest of the poop is mushy. So, I will have to lay off the whole bones I guess. I am currently trying to find a local, if possible, source of ground raw for her. I also have THK Thrive for her. Is THK truly something I can feed her as a stand alone diet? What about her desire for chewing? THK (or even ground raw) definitely doesn't satisfy the need to chew, or even have teeth cleaning benefits. Can I be getting her larger, non-consumable bones to chew on? Or should I stick with the bully stick sort of thing to satisfy chewing?

Thanks!

By "mushy," do you mean pudding, or almost-formed?

Is she pooping out chunks of the weight-bearing bones from before? Or what?

To me, neither is desirable (for different reasons).

Probiotics and enzymes are a good idea.

Pooping out undigested small relatively soft bone like the cartilage-y bone from backs, though, to me is a probable sign of a much-too-fast trip through an inflamed gut.

Her need to chew and the dental benefits are long-term concerns that really go on hold for now. Right now, the diarrhea (and its cause) is the primary issue, along with getting bland easily-digested nutrition into her that isn't scooting through so fast that she gets no benefit from it.

I'd give her tiny frequent meals (like snacks) of THK. And I wouldn't wait for long for improved poops before switching to very overcooked soupy white rice (again, tiny frequent snack-size amounts). I'll explain the calcium issue (and how to fix it) with a chicken/rice diet for a little growing puppy like this, if you do need to go that route for more than a couple of days. (The normal calcium in an RMB-based diet is a poop-firmer, too, as you probably know, added to the need for calcium for her growing body.)

Yes, THK can be stand-alone, but that's not really an issue for today. I think that when the diarrhea is addressed, and her gut is functioning normally, there will be no problem with THK plus backs and the like. (I do agree with Steve and others that weight-bearing bones aren't a good choice here.)

Until the size of the meals she was trying to process came up, I thought that giardia (or similar) was the most likely issue. The unusually foul smell, the projectile diarrhea, and a few other things still give it the edge, in my mind. But now the info about the amount of food given has moved that up the list, close to parasites.

I'm thinking that the vet visit tomorrow is very important. If such relatively soft bones as backs are not being digested, then there's a good chance that the entire meal is scooting through too fast for proper nutritional absorption.

Long-term plans for her diet can be formulated while she's recovering from the diarrhea.

A very good diet for a growing puppy who got off to a rough nutritional start can be devised (easily) with the THK puppy formulas plus RMBs added as directed; please don't worry about that part.

PS

If the vet suspects giardiasis and suggests diagnostic procedures for giardia (such as "Two or three negative fecal tests, done at least several days apart, usually are conducted before a Giardia infection is ruled out. .... {or} A test kit is available for in-clinic screening for Giardia. Advanced testing can be done by either direct immunofluorescent assay (IFA) or enzyme-linked immunosorbent assay (ELISA), both of which are done on fecal samples" from the link below), you may want to initiate a discussion about just treating (as Dr. Betty mentioned yesterday: http://leerburg.com/webboard/thread.php?topic_id=32546&page=3#364847 ).


http://www.petwave.com/Dogs/Dog-Health-Center/Digestive-Disorders/Giardia/Diagnosis.aspx

"Because Giardia cysts are only shed intermittently and not constantly, a Giardia-free fecal examination does not necessarily rule out giardiasis."

"False negatives are far more common in dogs with giardiasis than are false positive test results."




(If the cause has been overfeeding, getting her gut back to normal still trumps the need to chew and the dental benefits from raw bones. That is, getting log poops from small well-digested meals is Job One right now. I promise you that we can help you work out a good balanced long-term diet for her. )



All my posts are JMO. I'm not a health professional.

Ok, so, I really don't know if we're talking about chunks of weight-bearing bones still in her stool. Possibly. It seemed to me they were larger than back bones? But I'm not sure. The only bone I gave her yesterday was the backs and wings. Bone chunks in her morning stool today. The "mush" I am talking about is formed poop, around the bone chunks, too mushy to hold together in a log, if I try to pick up. She did another poop, after that one, several hours later, that didn't appear to have any bone chunks in it. This second poop of the day was actually formed logs that looked nice. I have not yet given her any bone today, just boiled chicken earlier, and THK so far today. (not together)

So, THK seems to be going well for her. Do you really think she needs overcooked rice, if she's doing well with THK? Should I stop completely the backs and wings for now, to be sure her gut is good?

Will definitely ask all about the giardia thing tomorrow at the vet.

What my concern with the undigested bone is Laurie, it becoming an obstruction. You could still have that soft poop passing with pieces, but a blockage forming with more bone.

I'd skip some feedings, I know she's young, and then maybe only THK for a week or so. Let her clean out. And by the way, the patties are cheaper then THK.

"So, THK seems to be going well for her. Do you really think she needs overcooked rice, if she's doing well with THK?"

Not if poops continue to improve. That was what I meant about not waiting for long to switch to the rice gruel ... waiting for improved poops.

I agree with Steve about possible or potential blockage, which was part of why I was asking about "new bones or old bones" in today's poop.

This is why all the many questions about "formed but soft" or "unformed pudding." Formed poops, even if soft, are a clue that the poop isn't squeezing past a partial obstruction.

So people are asking you all these questions to help rule out (or in) the possibilities of partial blockage, of an infection like giardiasis, and of plain old over-feeding system inflammation.

PS

You are seeing improvement on THK. My feeling is, don't change it now. It's a balanced diet, you already have it in the house (I think you mentioned not being in a good position at the moment to go buy the patties), and "This second poop of the day was actually formed logs that looked nice. I have not yet given her any bone today, just boiled chicken earlier, and THK so far today. "

Perfect log poops for days is your goal before doing anything different, and even then, it would be slow and gradual (and not with weight-bearing bones). A history of perfect log poops is what you want.

Thank you, Steve, I've been concerned about the undigested bone, too, for that reason, and for the obvious reason that if it's undigested, the bone is not doing her body any good, either.

I still need to find the patties. I don't know if I can find them locally or not, but smaller, specialty pet stores tend to be closed around here on Sunday. All I can get at the bigger pet stores today is the refrigerated, cooked foods. Since I have THK already, that's where I thought I'd start, unless someone raised a red flag with that, for some reason. I thought I'd use THK for her right now, and shop around for the patties. Of course, pre-made and ground raw was the one thing I hadn't planned on. Of course. LOL So I don't know yet if I can get it locally. :-)

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

This is why all the many questions about "formed but soft" or "unformed pudding." Formed poops, even if soft, are a clue that the poop isn't squeezing past a partial obstruction.

So people are asking you all these questions to help rule out (or in) the possibilities of partial blockage, of an infection like giardiasis, and of plain old over-feeding system inflammation.

LOL Poop talk is SO fun. I understand, and I appreciate ALL the help. Thanks to all. This was, of course, unexpected, and so, I get to keep learning new things. Yay!