Brian;
I copied this from another thread to illustrate something...

"Another terrific late-night game of tug last night. It seems that Sadie's drive for play is at 9;30 pm, when she feels like she hasn't had enough attention for one day. She has a very overt way of letting me know when she's up for some engagement, and she just wouldn't stop. I was tempted to stifle her, but I've been working super hard to work through her inhibited prey drive, so I took her outside and fought with her for about 20 minutes."

One reason I love my dog is that she's like a grandchild...she needs me to do things with her that my old tired butt doesn't feel like doing. I revel in the knowledge that she would rather do it WITH ME, so I manage it.

My dog was rehomed at 2.5yrs, and some of her drives had been repressed in her previous home. I live for the moment when she displays a desire to engage in tug, so even if it's at a bad time, I try to oblige. This is done in the hope that one day she'll play when and where I want her to. I also feel I owe it to her, as I took on the responsibilty of caring for her, and this is one of the things she needs.

On the other hand, you have a dog with over-the-top drive, and you need to provide an outlet for that. If you want to care for him properly, you will have to increase your energy level to match his.

One thing that will help make him a suitable companion in the house is to wear him out. After an outing, like fishing or training club, or after an intense play session, Sadie comes inside, finds an out-of-the-way spot (or goes into her crate), and CRASHES out.

Here is my rah-rah post, which I mean sincerely and which at my age comes from long experience.

 Quote: Duane Hull

If you want to care for him properly, you will have to increase your energy level to match his. .... One thing that will help make him a suitable companion in the house is to wear him out. After an outing, like fishing or training club, or after an intense play session, Sadie comes inside, finds an out-of-the-way spot (or goes into her crate), and CRASHES out.

Yes, frustrated energy puts an edge on the dog's behavior almost like a sugar overload with a child. We are not losing sight of the pack work needed, the basic ob work that is overdue (preferably marker work), or the missing management (tethered to you in the house, not put in a position where teeny hamsters are accessible to him, etc.), but it's always true: a tired dog is a good dog.

Working and playing with you .... this is bonding, it's a constant upbeat training opportunity, it's good for him physically, and ta-da! --- it takes away that frustrated edge that can easily turn destructive.

Some of what he needs can be done with little exertion for you. Teach the retrieve (fetch), starting with returning the item to you, and then even a Chuckit, with you in a lawn chair, can really take the edge off his need for speed. But teach the retrieve first!

Then even Frisbee can be largely you standing and the dog doing 99% of the work.

That is, lots of the big energy expenditure can be mostly-dog-work, leaving you ready for some agility sessions instead of too exhausted.

I have several games for the evening, too, that involve me on the couch and the dogs doing the thinking and working. (I do slow them down, calm them down, when it nears bedtime.) Lots of folks here have "rainy day" activities that work just as well for times when the human needs a break but the dog would benefit from some brain-work.

I think you have some work to do. But I think it will be positive for you AND the dog.

ok brian i watched the videos and i have some comments .

as the others have said , this dog is already switched on and wants to engage with you , however . . .

at this stage of the dogs development , the ball is not the most productive toy to be using . see how he brings it back 2/3 of the way and then drops it ? i've seen this a thousand times . in this scenario the dog is calling all the shots , you are basically just a ball chucking machine , and the dog is running the show . sure you are asking for and getting some weak behaviours , but the dog appears to be just kind of going through the motions .

in my opinion ( and experience ) you should be using a ring or some sort of a tug that you can be engaged in play TOGETHER with the dog . as i see it , one of the problems with the ball is that either the dog has it , or you've just taken it away , so his motivation to bring it right back to you is not there , and if you continue the game the way you are playing it , it may never be there because he's learned that you'll just keep chucking it for him as long as he drops it .

some might question why it is important to have the retrieve anyway , after all the dog is chasing the ball and getting the exercise you want him to have . in my opinion , the retrieve ( and tug game ) represents the engagement that you share with the dog , and for the relationship to really flourish , the most important thing is for the dog to see you as the best thing in the world . the dog freely , eagerly sharing your toys with you represents that engagement . when you have that , and it takes time to develop , there is no limit to what you can do with the dog . for a border collie , this can mean the difference between a life in harmony with it's master , or a life in conflict with it's master .

start with tugging games , with him on a line so that you remain in control of him , and the tug . only move to tossing the object if he " outs " readily and you know he will bring it back without conflict . you can release the toy into his mouth from a tug , but keep moving backwards so that he is encouraged to come into your space , not the other way around which will create conflict .

in the video in the backyard , see how he doesn't want you to enter his space , or vice versa . you need to be using food , and body language and affection to make him comfortable in close proximity to you . take every opportunity to get close to him and let him know that you like his company .

as well , i would have this dog on a long ( drag ) line pretty much all the time so that when you want him you can get him without conflict . that doesn't mean you have to be holding onto him all the time , it just makes it easier to take control when you want / need to . make sure you have food on you ALL the time so that when he is close , there is always something good in it for him .

with marker training , there is no limit to what you could do with this dog . agility is a great activity that you can do with him both in an organized setting with traditional equipment as well as usng your imagination with objects found in nature and elsewhere .

good luck , hope some of my advice helps .

ps . forgot to add . . . don't be spending money on a " behaviourist " until you have a " real " problem , which i don't see here .





Edited by ian bunbury (09/19/2012 01:55 PM)
Edit reason: added advice

There's a ton in Ian's post, so please don't take away only this. But this is something to do now, immediately, tonight, by simply teaching the release of the item into your hand. We can teach you that. Or even two-ball is so much better than what we're seeing, which is no play-engagement between you and the dog at all.


"....some might question why it is important to have the retrieve anyway , after all the dog is chasing the ball and getting the exercise you want him to have . in my opinion , the retrieve ( and tug game ) represents the engagement that you share with the dog , and for the relationship to really flourish , the most important thing is for the dog to see you as the best thing in the world . the dog freely , eagerly sharing your toys with you represents that engagement . "

Have you seen any of the tug clips?

http://leerburg.com/flix/player.php/736/My_dog_loves_chasing_a_ball_but_is_not_interested_in_playing_tug

http://leerburg.com/flix/player.php/733/When_to_Use_a_Tug_vs_a_Ball_Reward_in_Your_Dog_Training

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcoQut5pmxA

Again, we are not losing sight of the pack work needed, the basic ob work that is overdue (preferably marker work), or the missing management (tethered to you in the house, not put in a position where teeny hamsters are accessible to him, etc.), but it's always true: a tired dog is a good dog.

This dog needs to expend energy and he needs to do most of it while engaged with you.

Do you know the basics of marker training? How to load/charge your marker? Have you seen any marker clips or DVDs?

yer right connie . . . . i coulda made this a lot easier by just sayin'







buy the damn videos lol

Well, there's plenty to do before they arrive, too!

But even more, I guess I was trying to say that any step in the right direction is better than none.

For example, big ditto on the tug or ring ... but even teaching the fetch right (teaching the retrieve and release, no matter how casual) will make the ball-throwing more of a me-and-the-dog game, with the dog coming back and giving the ball into the hand so it can be re-thrown (or even to play two-ball).

I agree with you 100% that this is a major goal: "....the most important thing is for the dog to see you as the best thing in the world . the dog freely , eagerly sharing your toys with you represents that engagement."

I was thinking that even plain ol' fetch could be brought much closer to that ideal if the dog (and owner) were engaged, excited, and, maybe most of all, connecting physically every time the ball came back instead of being dropped on the ground.

So Brian --- I just wanted to add that the reason many of us are on this Forum is because we had dogs just like yours and needed to figure out how to deal with them.
Mine started biting at 4 months! Now he's great. Yours will be too!

Hi Ian
I have bought him a tough rubber ring to play pull with him. Please confirm that i have understood you correctly:

1. Keep him on long lead
2. Play tug with the ring and when he lets go, i say out and throw it for him and then keep moving backwards, so that he chases me with the ring.
3. Repeat above.

Is this correct and will this teach him a good retrieve and to focus on me?

Hope these are not stupid questions. Mind you, its better to look stupid for a minute than to continue to make mistakes forever. lol

Thanks
Brian

Just been on the field to play tug for an hour on and off, which he seemed to really enjoy. By the end i was getting him to out no problem, well had to wait about 10 seconds or so. He would sit, down and stay, waiting for me to say yes for him to get it again and on the occasions i was resting (MIGHT TAKE AN OXYGEN TANK NEXT TIME) and i just let him walk off, i could get his focus back to me really quick, i just shouted down and where ever he was he would go down and focus right on me again. It was great. Now sorry for waffling and this may seem everyday stuff to you guys, but i have never done this, as the class where i take him says don't play tug as it can make them more dominant and aggressive. Well i think i will stick with playing tug with him. The only downside was when he was back on the lead crossing the road to my car a bike come past and he pulled like mad to get it, i hoped the tug toy might distract him, but the bike is more interesting to him at present. If i keep playing tug, do you think it may reduce his bike chasing, as he will hopefully be more focused on me. Sorry for asking all these questions, hope you don't mind.
Many Thanks
Brian

First; yes. If you keep working the tug properly, his drive for it SHOULD increase, therefore making it easier to redirect using the tug. However, different dogs have varying levels of tolerance, so there are no set answers or guarantees.

Tug will not adversely affect your dog if you enforce the rules of the game, and you don't let the dog possess the tug. Remember NILIF; all toys are YOUR toys, and you're allowing him to play with you and your toy. Thiss will increase his drive for tug, as well.

ETA: the owner of this website uses tug in the training of her 10lb Border Terrier.

Edited by Duane Hull (09/20/2012 03:32 PM)
Edit reason: eta