Yup- what Steve said. It's all about genetics and OB. Pet people tend to discount genetics.

I think Michael Ellis has a video where he talks about allowing strangers to feed a dog. He had a dog that learned to run up to people looking for treats. The dog didn't like strangers, but had learned that they were treat dispensers. So, one time the dog runs up to someone who doesn't have a treat. The dog realizes- wait a second- I am really uncomfortable with this person, and "nails him". Bad situation.

 Quote: Cheri Grissom

Where's the "Like" button when you need it? ^^^^^^^^

Especially this:

 Quote: steve strom

...I think temperament and drives are pretty much hard wired in dogs. They don't change and we just influence whats done with them...

As I mentioned before, I don't have experience with a large number of dogs, but this statement has held very true with my dogs and those of many other people I know.

+1

IMO the Leerburg "things" like not letting strangers touch your dog, NILIF, etc. are essential for the working hard drive dog who lives by rules and has to have a leader to even be a functional friend.

I found Leerburg because the old pup-raising rules I knew didn't work with my ACDx.

But Petco pup classes and standard obedience groups are fine for generic low drive soft pets. They serve a function in helping folks to comprehend their average minded easy dogs.

 Quote: Betty Landercasp

IMO the Leerburg "things" like not letting strangers touch your dog, NILIF, etc. are essential for the working hard drive dog who lives by rules and has to have a leader to even be a functional friend.

I found Leerburg because the old pup-raising rules I knew didn't work with my ACDx.

But Petco pup classes and standard obedience groups are fine for generic low drive soft pets. They serve a function in helping folks to comprehend their average minded easy dogs.

What kind of rules do you follow for your dog, regarding socialization with other dogs and people?

Actually, this is a question that would be interesting for the other topic participants to share as well.

Example:
You could say what dogs you have, temperament and drives, what kind of activities you do with your dogs, the "rules" that you use with them and how does he/she react with strangers (both dogs and humans).

Jose;

That would be a terrific topic for a new thread.

I have gotten interested by the conversation already on this thread. I thought some great viewpoints were presented here, and was anticipating your thoughts on the information shared by others in the previous posts.

 Quote: steve strom

9 years ago, I took my Rott through the Sirius puppy classes. It seemed like a good idea. First time we had a puppy with 2 and 5 yr old kids.

With that said Jose, I think temperament and drives are pretty much hard wired in dogs. They don't change and we just influence whats done with them. Since I look at it that way, I don't see any real difference between Sirius, Leerburg, or a whole lot of others.

You teach your dog what you want. Thats all. You'll get what he's capable of. If your dog is friendly and social it doesnt matter if you let everyone give him a treat or teach him to ignore others. He's still going to be friendly, you just taught him what to do.

If he's a little unsure about people and you have everyone give him treats, he's still going to be a little unsure, but now he knows how to behave.

If he's bothered by other dogs, getting roughed up by three of them in a puppy class isnt going to change that.

For me, its all obedience. Whether is something simple, like in Dr. Dunbar's videos or focused heeling. Its all the same.

How does your dog see other dogs and people today? Can you work with him or does he just get too distracted?

I agree that the drives are there in their genes, but I also think that there is a certain degree of change possible and that a puppy's brain is like a sponge, ready to acquire information. So, this is the old nature vs. nurture question. In most species, the adult outcome is a combination of both components.

Now, the big question for me, between the two "systems" is to figure out exactly when we should use one or the other. Example, if I go the "Leerburg way", does my dog miss on learning bite inhibition? If I go the "Dunbar way" do I get a dog that gets distracted by everything during walks?

My experience tells me that most dogs out there have food and prey drive much lower than the dogs that we see in the ME DVDs (which I believe that has to do with genetics mostly, and also with development and training). Considering this, can we train them well enough in engagement to make them aloof to strangers? Or, would it be more "safe" with this low drive dogs to just socialize them in a more open way?

He likes most everyone. Gets along with 9 out of 10 dogs. I just don't think there's a set 'way' to do anything. You use what works with each sponge. You always have to adjust as you go to fit with what your goals are.

"You always have to adjust as you go to fit with what your goals are."


Yup. What your goals are and what your dog is.

 Quote: steve strom

He likes most everyone. Gets along with 9 out of 10 dogs. I just don't think there's a set 'way' to do anything. You use what works with each sponge. You always have to adjust as you go to fit with what your goals are.

Of course the ability to read a dog plays heavily into this.