Yep Bob, I do all of that It's just good dog manners!

 Quote: Joscelyn Lovett

Yep Bob, I do all of that It's just good dog manners!

Then you have a pretty good concept of leadership. The rest is just being patient in training. It WILL come!

 Quote: Joscelyn Lovett

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

Desensitizing a reactive dog is also going to go a lot more easily with strong pack leadership.

I mean much more than the pack structure protocol/DVD ..... I mean you being the unfailing in-charge decider, protector, and leader.

Just need a little more help here. Is this done by standing between Stella & the people & M&R her turning her attention to me instead?

Also, how do I deal with her fear/aggressive reaction to a dog that is barking down the road? I just took her for a walk (dunno about tiring them out, but I'm buggered lol) and as we were nearly home a dog, I'm going to guess at least a block away (big blocks lol), started to bark, Stella reacted instantly with hackles, straining at the lead to run in the opposite direction (which is the way we were going anyway) and giving off very deep short "wuufs", she was clearly distressed, what should I have done to reassure her that she was in no danger because her Pack Leader was there to protect her? What I did do was increase my pace till she relaxed again.

Also, please know that I AM reading everything, but not replying to everything

Like Bob, I think you have a lot of good stuff in place.

All of the steps to desensitizing a reactive dog are going to help you hone your consistency. They all emphasize your position as pack leader/protector/decision-maker. They all focus your dog on you rather than the things that trigger the dog's reactivity, and they all gradually move those triggers into the ignored background where you want them.

The gist for me is working with the dog, upbeat sessions with HV rewards, just outside his or her trigger range so s/he can focus on me instead of the trigger and let the trigger become mere background noise. There are many ways to set this up, and there are lots more details about inserting myself between the trigger and the dog, starting the work in a completely distraction-free area to have a strong fall-back foundation before taking it "on the road," teaching a simple focus command at home first, and much more, including success stories.

Please post any questions you want to about these threads. They won't be exactly what you are dealing with, but they all have the same basis.

There are more detailed threads .... these are something to start on while I search for them.



http://leerburg.com/webboard/thread.php?topic_id=24388&page=1#253411

http://leerburg.com/webboard/thread.php?topic_id=24232&page=2#251710



QUOTE:
And I sought out perfect training opportunities. So while I did turn and walk away when I saw a challenge that was either too close to the sidewalk in a fenced yard, screeching away, or maybe hauling his owner by the leash down the road 100 at miles per hour, I looked for less volatile and more controllable circumstances.

Just like I would proof for any high-level distraction, I set up the proofing situation. A friend in the yard (but not close enough to drive my dog crazy), playing frisbee or even just walking his challenge-dog on a leash (whatever works for your dog) ... and I would do ob work (marker) with fabulous rewards. Again, the reward level goes up when the challenge is greater. I want my dog to be focused on me in rapt thrilled expectation. I want me and what I am doing and offering to be more exciting than the challenge-dog is interesting.

So my upbeat work with the dog and my rewards have to be better than the distraction challenge, and that takes a combo of good rewards and starting with the distraction outside my dog's circle of influence. The drawing closer is gradual.

Time will give gradual improvement. Think how happy I was the first time my dog turned away from a big ol' fenceline bark-fest with his enemy-dog because I called him! His head up, rapidly weighing in his little brain the two alternatives, and coming down on the side of me, the human who is calling him in a "wahoo" voice. This was not instant. This was lots of fun work on the recall and lots of basic ob work done just outside the zone of reactivity.

And just like Ed sometimes saying "good outside" to a dog who has been potty-trained for years, I don't stop polishing this behavior. END

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

Like Bob, I think you have a lot of good stuff in place.

All of the steps to desensitizing a reactive dog are going to help you hone your consistency. They all emphasize your position as pack leader/protector/decision-maker. They all focus your dog on you rather than the things that trigger the dog's reactivity, and they all gradually move those triggers into the ignored background where you want them.

The gist for me is working with the dog, upbeat sessions with HV rewards, just outside his or her trigger range so s/he can focus on me instead of the trigger and let the trigger become mere background noise. There are many ways to set this up, and there are lots more details about inserting myself between the trigger and the dog, starting the work in a completely distraction-free area to have a strong fall-back foundation before taking it "on the road," teaching a simple focus command at home first, and much more, including success stories.

Please post any questions you want to about these threads. They won't be exactly what you are dealing with, but they all have the same basis.

There are more detailed threads .... these are something to start on while I search for them.



http://leerburg.com/webboard/thread.php?topic_id=24388&page=1#253411

http://leerburg.com/webboard/thread.php?topic_id=24232&page=2#251710



QUOTE:
And I sought out perfect training opportunities. So while I did turn and walk away when I saw a challenge that was either too close to the sidewalk in a fenced yard, screeching away, or maybe hauling his owner by the leash down the road 100 at miles per hour, I looked for less volatile and more controllable circumstances.

Just like I would proof for any high-level distraction, I set up the proofing situation. A friend in the yard (but not close enough to drive my dog crazy), playing frisbee or even just walking his challenge-dog on a leash (whatever works for your dog) ... and I would do ob work (marker) with fabulous rewards. Again, the reward level goes up when the challenge is greater. I want my dog to be focused on me in rapt thrilled expectation. I want me and what I am doing and offering to be more exciting than the challenge-dog is interesting.

So my upbeat work with the dog and my rewards have to be better than the distraction challenge, and that takes a combo of good rewards and starting with the distraction outside my dog's circle of influence. The drawing closer is gradual.

Time will give gradual improvement. Think how happy I was the first time my dog turned away from a big ol' fenceline bark-fest with his enemy-dog because I called him! His head up, rapidly weighing in his little brain the two alternatives, and coming down on the side of me, the human who is calling him in a "wahoo" voice. This was not instant. This was lots of fun work on the recall and lots of basic ob work done just outside the zone of reactivity.

And just like Ed sometimes saying "good outside" to a dog who has been potty-trained for years, I don't stop polishing this behavior. END

Thanks Connie, I will have a look at both of those threads (and anymore you care to put up for me later on tonight). Both dogs have a great recall, under fairly strong distraction, in our yard, and interestingly enough my daughter dropped Abby's lead last night as she (Abby) lunged out the gate and started to take off down the road, I called her, she immediately turned around and came back, so I was over the moon about that

Both of them have a really great "touch" command which I've started using to distract them if I see them about to fire up, so that is starting to work PROVIDED I can get to them before it happens. Drag lines/long lines, I'm not sure what you call them, sorry, at least make it easy to stop them if they've already taken off down the yard, so I'm happy to say some progress is being made, but it will probably be a pretty long process.

Unfortunately I'm not what you'd call an "animated" trainer lol, but they DO get lots of praise and HV treats for doing what I ask them to though.

I shall keep the research going and see what else I can come up with. I never thought having a dog would be such a challenge, but I'm up for it because I love them both dearly

Thanks again for or your help thus far <3

" PROVIDED I can get to them before it happens."


That in itself is HUGE!
The further the dog gets into it's behavior the harder it is to control it. Even a glance at another dog or lifting it's ears at the sound of another dog barking is reason enough to break the chain of that behavior.
Having a dog isn't a challenge, it's an adventure!

" PROVIDED I can get to them before it happens."

This needs rewording, IMO, to "they are now managed so they cannot focus in on the trigger before I can intervene."

I agree that this is HUGE. Every time the dog practices that behavior, it's reinforced and ingrained. It's crucial to stop that process of glance-focus-stare-stinkeye-growl/lunge/bark.

It has to stop at "glance," or before. You see the trigger, you act. You see what is going to get him going before he does.

Planning ahead, thinking ahead, setting the dog up for success as you do this desensitizing work .... this is all good stuff. It's satisfying, and it's so productive that you are constantly rewarded.

Most of the time I see the trigger (ear movement, tensing, etc) or I'm ready to re-direct because I hear something that I know is going to set them off. BUT not always, sometimes there is just no warning at all, or perhaps I'm just not recognising the body language yet? BUT it only happened once today with Stella, not at all with Abby, so I'm pretty chuffed about that.

Tonights walk went really well, we had a group of kids with their little fluffy thing, maybe 50 meters away, both of them saw it, looked at it, then ignored it They also both totally ignored a man on an electric bike, that came ridiculously close to us at the rowing sheds, where we take them for a swim.

Things are really starting to move along quite rapidly so I'm feeling really optomistic, perhaps because they're both so young?

I read the threads you posted Connie and I have more ideas to try with them Just wish there was a nice big fenced in area somewhere that I could let them run loose in, but there's not so I just have to live with it.

A BIG thankyou to everyone that's helped so far, all of the advice has been SO helpful

Edit: Crud, forgot to add that EVERYTHING got marked & rewarded!!!!

Excellent!
As to the need for a big fenced area, why not put the dog on a long line? There is a lot of freedom for the dog and you still have control.
Don't jump into anything really long. Like anything else you want to build up to it gradually.
There will be a point where the dog gets outside your area of influence and you don't want to hit that and the dog learn to ignore you right away.

 Quote: Bob Scott

Excellent!
As to the need for a big fenced area, why not put the dog on a long line? There is a lot of freedom for the dog and you still have control.
Don't jump into anything really long. Like anything else you want to build up to it gradually.
There will be a point where the dog gets outside your area of influence and you don't want to hit that and the dog learn to ignore you right away.

I have a 10 mtr (33') long line, but only 1, could probably get close to that by joining all the other leashes together though. Might try that later in the week and see how it goes.

Thanks Bob