That makes a lot of sense, Steve, in almost every regard. The one thing I'm not 100% on is the avoidance. In this dog's case, the release IS the reward, so it's more like anticipating the reward/release.

The curb was actually identical for quite a while; same curb, only one way to approach it. It has been only the last few months that I've expanded that to try to solidify it. My inclination since I've been thinking this through lately (and partly because I use so many rewards in training that they may be muddying the issue), is actually to use a little more compulsion or escape/avoidance.

You're absolutely correct about the casual walk. I don't freak if she doesn't stop every time I stop, but I am trying to teach her that she cannot step into the street without sitting and waiting for me to look both ways, and to look for cars herself.

ETA: The consistency is pbly the biggest factor that I need to correct, regardless of what method I use. I can see where I need to be more consistent in my technique.

Edited by Duane Hull (05/22/2013 09:56 AM)
Edit reason: eta

As you approach the curb, maybe just a little reminder to pay some attention. Hey Sadie,,,,

 Quote: Bob Scott

 Quote: Candi Campbell

 Quote: Bob Scott

I don't believe a dog will actually "disobey"...JMHO!

I appreciate our difference of opinion, Re: the above, Bob -- But this has not been my experience in working with highly aloof, extremely independent, and very willfull breeds ... I have witnessed many an individual dog hear a fully understood command, then consider the known consequences of obeying OR disobeying before electing non-compliance, because its own self-reward for doing as IT pleases at that given moment is deemed to be worth your correction (at least until you up the ante by pulling some form of ultimate rank on the beastie).

JMHO here too, of course

Candi, I'm always open to honest differences in opinions. It's how we learn.
If the dog in your explanation is allowed to self reward then the proofing is lacking. I do agree that they will chose that self reward if there hasn't been a good enough reward or correction in the initial training.
Dogs will do what benefits them the most. Proper training/proofing is where we, as trainers don't allow those decisions to be made by the dog.
It's simply a matter of not allowing a bad behavior (self-rewarding) to happen.
Training a dog is the easy part. Breaking those incorrect behaviors that we've allowed to happen is the pia part.
I had half dozen different terrier breeds for 40+ yrs. They are known to be "stubborn" yet I've never had one that fit that description.

Thanks for your continued discussion, Bob, and I agree much may be learned despite differences of opinion -- One thing I often come away with is that some so-called disagreements are frequently due to "semantics" more than opposing facts...

For instance, it is actually the Proofing Phase that I posted about above, not the Learning Phase -- So I would not say that "proofing was lacking" at that stage of training, but rather, that Corrective Motivation was being increased until the threshold of my dog's desire/determination to disobey was overcome ... It is always possible that various posters are really saying very similar things, while using a non-similar (or maybe even conflicting) vocabulary of terms

" It is always possible that various posters are really saying very similar things, while using a non-similar (or maybe even conflicting) vocabulary of terms "

Yes indeed. Which applies to me in this thread. In re-reading my response earlier, I don't mean to say that I've instilled the same "temperament" in my dogs with similar training. Temperament is innate--that's what they come to me with. (Although there is a skill in evaluating the temperament of a potential puppy or dog you are thinking about getting and knowing whether or not you've got the potential there for the dog you want.)

What I wanted to say is that even dogs with different temperaments (nature) can--with the right training (nurture) be guided to consistent response. You have to adjust the nurture to the nature. Some require more nurture than others. But few dogs can be successful in their modern roles living with people on nature alone.

Whether by selection or training, people are largely responsible for the behavior of the dog they've got--not the dog.

Tracy, you have an interesting pack!

I'm pretty curious:

Which has the highest food drive?
Toy drive?
Fastest learner?
Most obedient?
Smartest?

Food drive: Ellie
Toy drive: Cinco
Fastest Learner: Jack
Most Obedient: Luca
Smartest: Luca

Okay, Steve;

I reviewed my proofing of the "sit" and "wait" behaviors, and all went as I suspected. Proofing was all accurate, with commands. Will sit and wait indefinitely on either command (though she leans a bit if I leave her inside and go outside without releasing her). Will sit without the command if I get her attention ahead of time (remember the "Hey, Sadie"...?) and proceed to one of the spots where I want her to do it automatically. Will always sit on a stop at heel without a command, EXCEPT at the curb (same curb we've been crossing for two years). Will sit if I command her at a distance with my back to her.

I'm still at a loss as to why she won't automatically sit at the door, gate, curb, or tailgate, unless she's just being stubborn. She has a lot of other programmed behaviors, so I know it's possible. I strongly believe that she knows it's expected, partly because of the sheer number of repetitions.

My plan is to make sure I'm absolutely consistent in giving a correction when she doesn't offer the behavior: the problem is that she doesn't always have her prong on her, so until now I had been mainly using a verbal correction. I may have to go to leaving the prong on her and using a tap when she is off-leash. The problem with that is it makes her hand-shy, and that gives people the impression that you are beating the dog.

To me Duane, I'd chalk it up to nerves and forget about correcting her to fix it. It sounds to me like, for whatever goofy reason, she feels pressured in those situations and she just can't overcome it and sit on her own.

If I was going to keep trying to work on it, I'd come towards things like the door and curb at a little bit of a quick pace and enough room to give her three or four quick sit commands with me stopping abruptly, then the final one with an abrupt stop but no command giving her a chance to be correct.

I'd repeat that over and over till she's sitting quicker on the first few and then go random with the command. I'd also be random on going through the door or into the bed of the truck, a lot of calm releases heading the opposite direction to help relieve some of what I think is bothering her.

So you don't think it's possible that she's anxious to get out of the truck or go outside to self-gratify? Her body language is more like she's in a hurry to go do what she wants to do more than she feels pressure. She's upbeat and motivated.

The behaviors that she does have pre-programmed are high-reward behaviors (i.e. the benefit she gets out of it).

It seems to me that it goes back to the old-as-the-hills argument of whether the dog wants to please you, or he's pleasing you to get what he wants. It's almost as if, as Bob or Candi said earlier, she is making a decision to not obey because the reward/correction is not high enough. I have also considered the possibility that she doesn't deem my verbal correction as enforceable, and she's making a conscious decision to ignore it.

ETA; example... she sees me putting on my shoes. She stares at my feet expectantly as I slip the shoes on. She knows we are going outside and goes into an excited, happy spin. I move toward the door and she races ahead. She's now in front of the door, so I have to command her to move. Then, she'll come around to the heel position, where she's gotten a thousand wait commands, and still try to bolt past me out the door. IMO, she should know by now that it doesn't happen that way, and if she wants to go, she has to wait.

Your example's a little different context, more in line with what Bob was saying. Its like a cue its time to do something getting her excited, but I'd still consider nerves as far as her not being able to contain herself and do what you're asking, not just drive.