"I dont quite have him bringing the tug back when I release it but he at least stopped running away with it, lol. He starts to play keep away so I say "no" then he reluctantly lets me come grab it then I mark "yes" and start the play again. I am sure it will happen soon that he brings it back like seen in the videos. Other then that he will "out" beautifully and do obedience for the tug. "


Are you familiar with backchaining the steps in a command? I don't want a correction in the middle of a behavior ("no, don't run away") or even any reluctance at all about returning the toy to me. (This crosses over both ways to the recall, BTW. I never want any "chase me" for either one. And it's avoidable if we're careful with the foundation work.)

So for me, ever since Bob Scott taught me backchaining some years ago, I start retrieve work (including simple fetch) with the dog giving me the toy.

I don't join the links in the chain until each link is solid.

You can see that this doesn't even require a trip outdoors, and in fact, like almost all commands, is best started in a no-distraction area.

"My confusion is when using toy reward how to mark. If he outs I say "yes" but then that means come bite it again. If I want obedience then I have been saying "out" then "good" followed by obedience and once he does the sit, down, etc I release with "yes" and he gets to re bite and play. I am stuck on that bridge between what to do for marking the release but then transitioning to obedience. "


What does "good" mean in that context?

If "good" is your intermediate bridge, then it's used when introducing duration to a command.

What is is, is a way to give little reinforcers telling the dog that s/he is successfully working toward completing a command.*

That is, if your terminal bridge (sounds like it's "yes" for you) marks a successfully completed command, the I.B. (sounds like it's "good" for you) marks his progress toward that "yes," not a transition to a new command.




"I watched Cindy in the Ellis Tug video she "outs" then says down, sit etc followed by "yes" and goes again. ... That bridge is where I am confused. "

I think I'm reading that you're looking for a "link:" from one command to another. But the TB is the end, the release from one command, and the next command is simply the next command.

I think I'm reading it right, but maybe not.

Are you describing ob, then a tug used as reward, then mark for out, then a new ob command?



* Later, you might also use it to increase other parameters ... maybe intensity, height, and so on. But its primary (or at least first) use is usually duration.

You answered it.

I need to stop saying "good" unless its leading to the end marker "yes" for the same command not a new one. This I think is what I needed to hear. Thanks.

I still am not sure what to say when I out him but dont necessarily want a re bite on the tug. I want to tell him he did the right thing for "out" but then transition to obedience then mark yes for following sit, stand, down etc which would allow a re bite to the tug for reward.


I just took him to a park to play tug and work on engagement. What a different dog. Its like he doesnt know what a tug is and just wants to lay in the grass or sniff. I keep in the back of my head he is 5 months old so I was patient. I just kept marking "yes" for looking at me until I went through all my treats. Tried some more tug but no success. At the end I got him interested in my hand towel so I used it instead and got that tug energy I needed. I transitioned to 2 different tugs a little time on each then ended quick trying to leave him wanting more instead of exhausting it.

Any tips on helping me through engagement and getting that energy outside the home?

As for back changing I have been trying to do that also. For some reason I am the one that he like to play keep away. He retrieves to my wife or daughter. I been really working at it using good and my makers for brining toy back after tossing it.

I guess I have to keep at it. He loves to grow, jump, and bark to get me to chase him. I make a point of just standing there or moving away to bring to me but no luck.

I will set up a separate scenario to do retrieve again and see if this helps me. Seems I may have to use good to get it done for now. I do t think the game of tug is over powering enough that he associates retrieving the tug as rewarding

 Quote: Brian Drake

As for back changing I have been trying to do that also. For some reason I am the one that he like to play keep away. He retrieves to my wife or daughter. I been really working at it using good and my makers for brining toy back after tossing it.

I guess I have to keep at it. He loves to grow, jump, and bark to get me to chase him. I make a point of just standing there or moving away to bring to me but no luck.

I will set up a separate scenario to do retrieve again and see if this helps me. Seems I may have to use good to get it done for now. I do t think the game of tug is over powering enough that he associates retrieving the tug as rewarding

Back-chaining just means teaching the last step first.

From terms at Karen Pryor's site:

"Back-chaining"
"Training the last behavior in a chain first, then training the next-to-last behavior, then the behavior before that, and so on. Back-chaining takes advantage of the Premack principle."

Why are you using "good" here? Is it your IB for if he's on his way to you?

I would strongly urge that you separate the links in the "retrieve" command. Time spent on foundation is never time wasted. That is, "Keep at it" is not what I recommend. That link is weak. Make it solid and THEN go back to the retrieve command chain.

 Quote: Brian Drake

... I still am not sure what to say when I out him but dont necessarily want a re bite on the tug. I want to tell him he did the right thing for "out" but then transition to obedience then mark yes for following sit, stand, down etc which would allow a re bite to the tug for reward.

OK, the dog was doing basic ob. Then mark, with tug for reward. Then "out" and a marker for the out.

Now another command. "Sit," whatever. Then marker with tug back for the reward.

I'm missing something.

"I just took him to a park to play tug and work on engagement. What a different dog. Its like he doesnt know what a tug is and just wants to lay in the grass or sniff. I keep in the back of my head he is 5 months old so I was patient. I just kept marking "yes" for looking at me until I went through all my treats. Tried some more tug but no success. At the end I got him interested in my hand towel so I used it instead and got that tug energy I needed. I transitioned to 2 different tugs a little time on each then ended quick trying to leave him wanting more instead of exhausting it. ... Any tips on helping me through engagement and getting that energy outside the home?"

For me, from inside to a park is too much distraction too fast!

I think "Of course he wants to lie and roll and sniff! If I had a puppy in a new outdoor space full of new sounds and smells, I'd be darned happy with a few seconds for each "look at me."

OTOH, this isn't ob, it's play, and Michael Ellis does indeed take the pup to new locations and get engagement/play there. (In that case, I'd want to "up" my engagement ... my "attractiveness" to the pup.)


I'd say "you are not engaging him at the park; you are not the best show in town," but honestly, IMHO (not universal, I know), that's a lot to ask for when you're competing with a park. Going from indoors to grass and squirrels and trees and cars going by and expecting the tug to be captivating right away ...



JMO, though. The puppy experts will help, I'm sure.

New topic moved to http://leerburg.com/webboard/thread.php?topic_id=33837&page=1#385921


Edited by Connie Sutherland (11/08/2013 05:46 PM)
Edit reason: moved

"I just took him to a park to play tug and work on engagement. What a different dog. Its like he doesnt know what a tug is and just wants to lay in the grass or sniff. I keep in the back of my head he is 5 months old so I was patient. I just kept marking "yes" for looking at me until I went through all my treats. Tried some more tug but no success. At the end I got him interested in my hand towel so I used it instead and got that tug energy I needed. I transitioned to 2 different tugs a little time on each then ended quick trying to leave him wanting more instead of exhausting it. "





Have you spent almost all his tug-playtime indoors? Was this his first time with a tug in the outdoors?


BTW, "ended quick trying to leave him wanting more instead of exhausting it" was a good move, IMHO.

Do you have a little clip of playing tug at home?