Quote: Bob Scott

sounds like you've jumped from the "take it" right to the "out".
Bak needs to learn "hold" even if it's for a second before he gets an "out".
Of course you don't really put a command to it until he understand you don't want him to drop it yet.
keep hold of his snout with the object in it. If need be put him on a leash so he can't fight you so much.
Maybe just mark and reward his holding still while holding his muzzle and nothing in his mouth.

Oh, that sounds good!

And Bob, how do you feel about the release (out) being taught with a no-problem item? Does the release really have to be taught using the item that he has a problem with? Can it be taught with any old thing he is willing to pick up, then gradually expanded to include all items?

 Quote: Maggie MacDonald

Thank you Connie, that's an excellent article and your explanation is very succinct.

I will post a video I did to show that he is doing well with most of the plan .. but needs work, a lot of training, on handing me the mail.

I can also see so many mistakes but I will post it anyway. I want to learn.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wu129gg7q3E&feature=youtu.be

I appreciate anyone who has the time to give me feedback.

Off to work on steps 4 and 5 in the article Connie linked.

Even though your clip is only a few seconds long, I JUST watched it! (Life has filled my "to do" plate to the brim recently.)

You have a lot good going on there. "Get the mail" is obviously clear to him! That in itself rises to the level of a nice command that he performs well.

A regular old retrieve is a pretty advanced behavior itself, you know.

I would probably work on him holding the mail, but not at the mailbox for now. That is, I'd probably work on that "link" separately, even indoors during TV commercials! One second at this point would be a mark/reward event. Duration can be added very very gradually.



Bob said "sounds like you've jumped from the "take it" right to the "out".
Bak needs to learn "hold" even if it's for a second before he gets an "out".
Of course you don't really put a command to it until he understands you don't want him to drop it yet.
keep hold of his snout with the object in it. If need be put him on a leash so he can't fight you so much.
Maybe just mark and reward his holding still while holding his muzzle and nothing in his mouth."

You might mean that Bak went right from "take it" to "out." I think maybe the mail hold (even in duct tape) might need some more separate work. VHV rewards (tiny is fine!) and shaping .... short sessions ....

If backchaining, then I'd do separate short sessions on the release into your hand (away from the mailbox), and IMO using any item to teach the release (or the "give"). That is, I'd consider using a non-challenging item to teach "give." Then I'd start substituting other toys (or whatever). It will be the same command no matter what the item is, right? Then when it's the mail, at least I wouldn't be trying to teach "give" with an item the dog hates to touch.

I would consider teaching the hold the same way.

I'm saying (not very clearly, I'm afraid) that I'd consider teaching these links using various items so he had the idea before working with the disliked mail.


But I'd like others' opinions! Bob? Others?



BTW, good move posting the clip. Remember that not just the finished work is considered in the judging. Whenever they can, the judges also factor in "how far did they come?" So good word descriptions (or, much better, a short clip like yours) of where you started is a good piece of judging information!

Such posted descriptions and clips can then be included (copied) in the post of the final entry.

Anyone who wants can post a clip of "after one week," etc., for comparison with the final entry.

I'd try one piece of mail, and when he gets it in his mouth, go back a little, with enthusiasm and a super good treat.
My guy figured out that he has to get the thing to me to get a reward. If you are standing right there, well, why can't he have the reward NOW? If he has to get it to me, the easiest and quickest way is for him to hold it.
When I started trying to micro manage his "hold" he became sick of the whole thing.

All in all I think it's super, super complicated, and he's going to be able to do it with time.

REALLY GREAT!

Thanks to all of you for your excellent feedback. It all makes sense.

I am going to keep working on him returning the 'whatever' to me as I think he can get it.

Besides I will be rich on check day as he shows no discernment between my mailbox and other peoples (j/k)

Betty, you make such sense on not standing so close to him so he has to walk to get the treat. He is a very very smart dog who reads me like a book.

Connie, bless you - I know you have a lot on your plate and your plate is the size of a turkey day platter.

I have a lot of work to do but I will give my boy a chance to give his all.

Thanks again Bob,Connie and Betty.

 Quote: Betty Landercasp

I'd try one piece of mail, and when he gets it in his mouth, go back a little, with enthusiasm and a super good treat.
My guy figured out that he has to get the thing to me to get a reward. If you are standing right there, well, why can't he have the reward NOW? If he has to get it to me, the easiest and quickest way is for him to hold it.
When I started trying to micro manage his "hold" he became sick of the whole thing.

All in all I think it's super, super complicated, and he's going to be able to do it with time.

REALLY GREAT!

Betty, I like this!

Just like backing up with "come" .....

I'm thinking of what you suggest combined with away-from-the-scene work on the release.


I love how much we learn from each other .....

Amen to that!

I'm rethinking what I'm doing with Trooper on holding the hot dog and will go to the muzzle hold instead of just trying to get him to take an object he doesn't want.

I've avoided any sort of being physical because of my weakness with handler soft dogs.

I think a simple hold, mark and reward will get me there. From that I'll use an object in the mouth, then go to holding my fingers and then to the hot dog.

He always freaked out when he accidentally grabs my hand wen playing tug. If nothing else this will help him realize that his teeth contacting my hands isn't the end of the world.

I've never made a big deal of it and he did some nice bite work on a helper with a sleeve. I know it's me.

"Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of.....dogs". I'm no Lamont Cranston so I may find out when I start having him hold my fingers.

bump

Almost two whole weeks left!

Need a little help here guys. Our Goal was doing a leg weave AND keeping quiet while doing it.

Sasha is getting the hang of going through my legs sideways now and I've been using a hand touch to get her to come forward to put her in position to go back through the other way.

My problem now is that because this is something new (and therefore scary) for her, she gets excited and the barking starts. I've had her do it with a toy in her mouth but that meant she made growly, grumbly noises instead. Without a toy in her mouth, as long as I keep marking and rewarding, she's quiet while eating the treat. The second the treat is gone the barking starts again.

How can I get her to be quiet when she does her "trick"? She's very sensitive and I don't want to correct her for the barking, because I'm worried she'll get confused, thinking I'm correcting part of the trick and shut down on me. Or do I just keeping doing it so much that it's boring and no longer scary and hope she stops barking.

Debbie, I can only say be patient.

This is what I'm working with in Trooper. Trying to convince him that "nope" isn't about life in general is hard FOR ME to get across to him.


Could the timing on giving her treats look to her as a reward for the barking?

Just a thought!

 Quote: Bob Scott

Could the timing on giving her treats look to her as a reward for the barking?

Just a thought!

This would have been my first question, Debbie.


Also, could you be conversing with her too much when she starts to bark, maybe escalating the barking?

Have you ever used a target stick?