I can only confirm! I had such an idiot too, when my dogs were puppies. Everything positive, positive. But what he was actually doing I don't find anymore positiv. Teaching them to walk on a loose leash, but almost non stop giving them a jerk with the leash. ???

I thought: Well, he is much more experienced, so he knows it better and believed him, stupid I. But the day, when one of my Pits didn't want to go on walking (the reason I didn't know) the all positive trainer said, she had to obey and dragged the "stubborn" animal on her belly over the floor. That was the moment when I woke up and fired him.

 Quote: Bob Scott

I agree that the terms are as you say but my thoughts are that "punishment" has a singular purpose of inflicting pain to the dog for an unwanted behavior and no thoughts beyond that.

"Corrections" have the goal of reducing a unwanted behavior through training.

I know, it's semantics but it's what makes sense to me.

When we had Lundy, and he was doing that leg humping/biting thing, the positive reinforcement trainer said, when he did that, to just stand there like a tree and ignore him. After he stopped and got off your leg, you could resume what you were doing. UGH!! that drove me nuts. He did that behavior till the day we sent him back - standing like a tree did absolutely nothing. And if you tried to leave the room he'd run after you and do it some more, plus bite your leg for an added bonus. I still don't see how that really teaches them anything - me standing like a tree wasn't a negative to him. I'd try telling him to sit or off, but that didn't have any effect either - but he was very very compliant to sit and other commands during training. So what should the correction have been? It's hard to correct a dog that's attached to the back of your leg! (you can tell I had always had easy dogs until Lundy came!)

 Quote: Lori Hall

 Quote: Bob Scott

I agree that the terms are as you say but my thoughts are that "punishment" has a singular purpose of inflicting pain to the dog for an unwanted behavior and no thoughts beyond that.

"Corrections" have the goal of reducing a unwanted behavior through training.

I know, it's semantics but it's what makes sense to me.

When we had Lundy, and he was doing that leg humping/biting thing, the positive reinforcement trainer said, when he did that, to just stand there like a tree and ignore him. After he stopped and got off your leg, you could resume what you were doing. UGH!! that drove me nuts. He did that behavior till the day we sent him back - standing like a tree did absolutely nothing. And if you tried to leave the room he'd run after you and do it some more, plus bite your leg for an added bonus. I still don't see how that really teaches them anything - me standing like a tree wasn't a negative to him. I'd try telling him to sit or off, but that didn't have any effect either - but he was very very compliant to sit and other commands during training. So what should the correction have been? It's hard to correct a dog that's attached to the back of your leg! (you can tell I had always had easy dogs until Lundy came!)

IMHO, that trainer Left a whole Lot to be desired

If the "humpee" Stands Still to be HUMPED by the "humper", then THAT is what the "humper" Wants !!!

When the "humpee" gets Its OWN Way, then that Behavior is Reinforced and WILL CONTINUE

Christina, one, firm, well timed correction is 100% more effective then one hundred nagging little pops with the leash.


Lori, I hope that trainer advised you NOT to wear shorts when doing you "stand like a tree" impersonation.

I think that person watched the Christmas Vacation movie to many time.

 Quote: Lori Hall

I'd try telling him to sit or off, but that didn't have any effect either - but he was very very compliant to sit and other commands during training. So what should the correction have been? It's hard to correct a dog that's attached to the back of your leg! (you can tell I had always had easy dogs until Lundy came!)

I would have kicked out with the foot as he came up to hump hard enough to convince him to NEVER try that kind of stuff with me again. A pup like Lundy would probably just turn to biting your ankle if you just shoved. If he managed to get on my leg he's going to be scraped off on the nearest piece of furniture. I might think about using a Pet Convincer as well.

Honestly in my house the pup wouldn't get much of a chance to do something like that anyway. I use work platforms to teach puppies "place" and they are too high for most pups to manage to get into any trouble with. When they aren't on their platform they are in an exercise pen, crate, or on a leash. I have no problems using a leash correction for stuff like humping even with pretty young pups. Obedience waits of course but rude behavior gets addressed.

The "be a tree" method works well for jumping because you are depriving the dog of the attention they want. I don't see how the heck your trainer thought using that method for humping was supposed to work. Blinded by positive dogma probably.

 Quote: Cathy Goessman

 Quote: Lori Hall

I'd try telling him to sit or off, but that didn't have any effect either - but he was very very compliant to sit and other commands during training. So what should the correction have been? It's hard to correct a dog that's attached to the back of your leg! (you can tell I had always had easy dogs until Lundy came!)

I would have kicked out with the foot as he came up to hump hard enough to convince him to NEVER try that kind of stuff with me again. A pup like Lundy would probably just turn to biting your ankle if you just shoved. If he managed to get on my leg he's going to be scraped off on the nearest piece of furniture. I might think about using a Pet Convincer as well.

Honestly in my house the pup wouldn't get much of a chance to do something like that anyway. I use work platforms to teach puppies "place" and they are too high for most pups to manage to get into any trouble with. When they aren't on their platform they are in an exercise pen, crate, or on a leash. I have no problems using a leash correction for stuff like humping even with pretty young pups. Obedience waits of course but rude behavior gets addressed.

The "be a tree" method works well for jumping because you are depriving the dog of the attention they want. I don't see how the heck your trainer thought using that method for humping was supposed to work. Blinded by positive dogma probably.

"...I might think about using a PET CONVINCER as well..."

If that's anything like an ecollar set to "Blast-Off", then I agree <:-O

"Me standing like a tree wasn't a negative to him."
It was a negative for him, because he didn't get your attention.
I agree with Candi in this point. And if done so consistently, he would have learned that his harassing you doesn't give him any advantage.

Against jumping this method of ignoring the dogs worked well with mine. When I started to kick or jump about, they only took it as a wonderful game.

By the way, Bob, why no shorts? Legs at least are easy washable.

But if it came to biting I would certainly not remain standing there like a tree. I think this would be a situation for giving a well timed, well memorable correction. But how? In order to make it well memorable, we would need to be very quick and kick very accurately.

The Pet Convincer is basically a c02 bike tire inflator with a modified nozzle. It makes a loud hissing noise. Using noise to interrupt or punish something can have a lot of fallout so it's not a tool I use a lot but for certain things it works really well. I've found it works well for ankle nipping if other things aren't working.

Oh great! Would this be a possibility to hinder one of my Pits from non-stop licking my legs? I have nothing against occasionally some licks, it's their way of showing affection. But she gets really bothersome. Nothing helped against this until now, although she's on the whole an easy trainable dog.

 Quote: Christina Stockinger

"Me standing like a tree wasn't a negative to him."

It was a negative for him, because he didn't get your attention.

Christina, the pup was NOT jumping up, he was "HUMPING" her leg, like "Dog-Mating" dominance behavior

Just standing still for it was what He WANTED Her to do -- So that was a POSITIVE result for Him.