I want to post this for the happenchance that someone else comes along with the same biting issues as myself. I’ve had a recent development in the biting issues with Negan. This morning I put together a new routine, or exercise, to curb the biting by using some concepts from Michael Ellis’s new Puppy video and also his Power of Food video: Contrast, Classical Conditioning, and Negative Punishment. This is what I did. I took Negan from his crate and, instead of trying to be all quiet and soothing, I decided I wanted to boost his opinion of his name and also the power of “Good Boy”. So, I started petting him vigorously while he was still in his freshly woken up stupor and he’s less likely to bite me. I vigorously work him over petting and scratching him everywhere until he plopped down sideways and then rolled over on his back exposing his tummy. He still tried to bite, but only halfheartedly. He was in a trance like state with his tongue hanging out and his tail wagging and his ears flopping around on the floor. I could tell he wanted to bite but didn’t want the loving to stop bad enough to commit to the effort it would take. We did this for nearly twenty minutes before I finally tested the waters and I let up on the loving long enough for him to reach up and go for a bite. He did, of course, but I said “OW!” in an unpleasant tone and stopped petting completely. He subsided the bite and I resumed the petting. We did this several times and I could clearly see that I was having an effect on the strength of his bite, it’s frequency, and his commitment to do so. All of it was MUCH LESS than it had been before. We had a few bites in the middle of all of this where it really did hurt and I would yell “OW!” and come up with my arms and face out of reach and look away from him in silence for a few moments. This stopped the biting temporarily each time and even led to a few very distinguishable apologies from him. Again, we resumed playfulness after each pause. So, for clarity, the CONTRAST I am speaking of is the wide difference between being petted and praised with a pleasant tone versus being silently ignored after a harsh rebuke, the CLASSICAL CONDITIONING is the “OW!” before taking away his praise and pets, and the NEGATIVE PUNISHMENT is the taking away the rewarding experience of being pet and praised.
Part of my previous strategy was to try and keep him calm by not petting or praising too intensely. I can see now that part of why that didn’t work was that there was not a very large difference between soft monotone petting and not being pet at all. I’ve still got the aversives in my back pocket and I’m not afraid to use them (talk about contrast!) but I want to see what develops of this approach for a couple of days first.
One of the biggest benefits of this is that I’m not having to stop training my foundation work to deal with the bad behavior. I am simultaneously teaching Negan not to bite while I’m still doing relationship building, bonding, and charging his name (and the phrase “Good Boy&rdquo with a positive feeling. I think, if continued, I’ll be able to reward Negan with praises in those rare moments that I don’t have a toy or a treat handy! It’s just win, win, win, and more win for Team Negan this morning!
I’ll keep posting updates on this board because I really feel this is something other people will struggle with like I am and I think I’m making good use of the instructions available here.

Excellent!

Just a quick clip from the Raising Your Puppy DVD with Michael Ellis on using aversives with puppies:

https://leerburg.com/flix/player.php/1410/Aversive_amp;_Puppies_with_Michael_Ellis?utm_source=nlist&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=01262017

Thank you Kelly!

I will never stop promoting Ellis simply because he is absolutely the best at explaining the when, what, why and how of what he does.

His aversives and puppies is an eye opener for me in how to explain it.

Definitely a keeper!

 Quote: Bob Scott

Thank you Kelly!

I will never stop promoting Ellis simply because he is absolutely the best at explaining the when, what, why and how of what he does.

His aversives and puppies is an eye opener for me in how to explain it.

Definitely a keeper!

LOL, ditto, Bob !!!

I now "feel vindicated" in using the Here, bite your own LIPS 'til you figure out NOT to bite Me method of Puppy Aversive

 Quote: Kelly

Just a quick clip from the Raising Your Puppy DVD with Michael Ellis on using aversives with puppies:

https://leerburg.com/flix/player.php/1410/Aversive_amp;_Puppies_with_Michael_Ellis?utm_source=nlist&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=01262017

Hey, that's awesome! Thank you!

Just an update, Negan does not bite nearly as often or as hard as before. He still does this behavior but I'm comfortable with the rate it is disappearing. I am using a mixture of redirection, time outs, and some corrections. The "good boy" game seems to have a strong effect when done regularly. He will still simply get riled up at some times regardless of what I do to avoid it. At that point, I merely redirect him to his crate and praise him for going in.

One last note, there are days he bites A LOT LESS. These are typically Saturdays. On Saturdays, he spends several hours either riding around with his family or has several more training sessions. Days that he is introduced to lots of new stimuli are usually the days with the least biting.

Of course, I have an 11 year old boy...he may always be a trigger for biting on any day.

Those tiny, very pointy puppy teeth are there for a reason.

The bite gets immediate results in the puppy's litter and that means the puppy getting bit either stops playing when it gets hurt OR it bites back.

Both results let the biter that it is using their teeth to aggressively.

This is very normal in puppies developing pack structure.

Any child also need to learn to respect the pup as much as the pup need to learn how to respect the child.

Not always easy with an 11 yr old boy.

Great advices here as always!. I too have the puppy DVD of M.E, although my dogs are not puppies any more. I found LB two years too late. But as Bob says it's an eye opener. I worked with this outstanding DVD when my Pits were two yrs old. and can use it further on a lot.

 Quote: Jeff Clanton

So, for clarity, the CONTRAST I am speaking of is the wide difference between being petted and praised with a pleasant tone versus being silently ignored after a harsh rebuke, the CLASSICAL CONDITIONING is the “OW!” before taking away his praise and pets, and the NEGATIVE PUNISHMENT is the taking away the rewarding experience of being pet and praised.
Part of my previous strategy was to try and keep him calm by not petting or praising too intensely. I can see now that part of why that didn’t work was that there was not a very large difference between soft monotone petting and not being pet at all.

Yes! I LOVE this method also for teaching impulse control to dogs who get overstimulated with attention. It's so awesome to see a dog who would normally try to jump on your head suddenly collect himself and rein it in before he gets out of control, and they start accepting petting softly rather than pushing their body weight into you.
For most dogs it doesn't take very long to understand either. I have friends whose dogs are manic jumpers, shovers, and lickers, and all it takes is me doing this with them a few times to get them to behave more softly around me.
I believe the strength of this technique is in the timing of the marker, and like you said, the contrast of reward to sudden and pronounced lack of reward.

I unknowingly used similar principles with my rescued dog when I first got him at 10 months old. He was very mouthy and would grab at hands when excited. He also would accidentally grab hands when playing. While he still does this on occasion today, he is very soft about it and doesn't actually bite down. It took a couple months of a consistent "OUCH!" being exclaimed dramatically after every contact with his teeth on flesh to make a lasting difference, but the results were immediate short-term.

Now, if you say ow after an accidental teeth-on-flesh slip up, he stops and looks at you like "really, did that really hurt?" He's much more careful now so it doesn't happen often, and it's more like his teeth bumping into your hand than a bite. I also do not have to say ouch with any exclamation anymore, he just knows the word means his teeth went too far. The silly clumsy puppy has much better body awareness now at almost 2 years of age