Ellen wrote:
<<because I don't need to trial to prove to myself or to others that my dogs can herd -->>

Nobody said that. We all trial or don't for personal reasons. Often it's really to test our own training and handling skills under different judges in different situations with different sheep. That's really what trialing is about...sometimes it's fun, often it's the camaraderie of other herding folks, and at AKC trials there's the fun of watching other breeds on different courses. By the way all my AKC titles have been earned at other venues, not at Ulf's.

<< So where does ulf and his HGH students train? (answer: at ulf's facility).
On what sheep do ulf and his students train? (answer: on ulf's sheep).>>

That's always the case with whichever instructor you work with, isn't it? Ulf is the only one within a 2 hour drive who has the sheep and the facility. But it also offers a wide variety of grazes, fallow fields, harvested fields and roads to work on.

<< On what trial course do ulf and his students trial and title their dogs? (answer: on ulf's trial course).
Now, let me see -- ulf and his students train & trial on ulf's sheep at ulf's training facility on the trial course that ulf sets up there. >>
When someone besides Ulf can arrange to offer a HGH trial, I'm sure many of us will be happy to give it a try. So far, it's only available in NJ. And...actually, it's the HGH judge who sets the course.

Ellen: << On what trial course do ulf and his students trial and title their dogs? (answer: on ulf's trial course).
Now, let me see -- ulf and his students train & trial on ulf's sheep at ulf's training facility on the trial course that ulf sets up there. >>

Dorit: <<When someone besides Ulf can arrange to offer a HGH trial, I'm sure many of us will be happy to give it a try. So far, it's only available in NJ. And...actually, it's the HGH judge who sets the course. >>

Nevertheless, Ellen got a point here. Our club put a lot of effort into the whole acceptance of HGH trials. It is rather disappointing to see that nobody else has used this opportunity now to establish another club and/or put on an HGH trial. Criticizing is easy.
Ellen, the door was opened by us, it is still wide open. All you have to do is finding a hosting club and going through the paper work and you can put on a trial yourself. It isn’t all that difficult. I think I gave you a complete list with all the details you need. As long as I know you, that is what you always wanted. Why don’t you just do it? It’s been more than a decade and you haven’t titled a dog yet. That’s all you used to talk about – titling your dogs with an HGH title. Apparently, you have all what you need. If you need competitors, we can send a number your way. If you have questions, we’ll try to answer them.
..and yes, the judge has the final word on the course. Our course got changed by the judge three times out of four.
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Ulf Kintzel
White Clover Sheep Farm
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Since I’ve been asked so many times I thought it’s best to explain the saying publicly:

“A good herding dog must at least kill one sheep.” The way it was understood was not the way it was meant. So Eddy, regardless of whether or not the drunken shepherd who told you that saying was me or somebody else, here is what he meant:

A true herding dog will eventually come into a situation where a sheep gets severely injured or killed by this very dog. This is very unfortunate, we don't appreciate or look forward to it but we cannot avoid it. If your dog hasn't killed or injured a sheep badly the dog is either not a dog that can move sheep effectively in difficult situations (sheep don't want to go out of a good field they don't belong, sheep don't want to move because it's hot and you still have to move them down the road for a few more miles etc. and the dog has not enough power to move them) OR you really haven't done true sheep herding yet, you haven't put your dog into situations that are really difficult.

That’s the meaning of this saying.

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Ulf Kintzel
White Clover Sheep Farm
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I see that there is a public interest in herding GSDs. Thank you very much. Therefore, I will answer the typical questions publicly:
1. Spectators will be welcome and admission free, you just can’t have a dog on the course as a spectator.
2. The trial will be held in Sussex County, NJ.
3. The trial date is October 13th. If we have more than 7 entries we will add Sunday morning (October 14th).
4. We have an e-mailing list, please contact either me or our club contact (see SchH USA magazine, Erster HGH Hueteverein, Northeast Region) if you wish to receive further detailed info (entry forms, direction, motels etc.).
5. We will have a program available, this program will include the SV’s herding regulations in English.
6. The competition will be held with about 220 sheep (200 is the minimum required).

Any other questions?

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Ulf Kintzel
White Clover Sheep Farm

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I don't know why my name got brought into this discussion originally but since it did, I thought I would respond. I am not a student of Ulf's but I am proud to call him a friend. I first met Ulf when he was attending college in Germany and was coming here every summer for a few weeks to train people who were working their dogs in tending and who were interested in more than just earning an AKC herding title.
At that time I had a UDTX PT BH FH bitch and my young male who I had started in herding but was mainly focussed on working in Schutzhund. I thoroughly enjoyed taking lessons from him during the times he was here.
By the time Ulf moved here permanently, I had put some real compulsion on Degen - he was a big rough tough hard male and I was (then!) a little, skinny middled aged female and I knew enough that only one of us could be alpha - me. After a couple of lessons, Ulf sat down with me and told me that he honestly felt that I had to choose to do one or the other with Degen. If we were going to herd, then I had to try to reverse some of what I had already done to get him so focussed on me for obedience purposes. I chose to continue with Schutzhund. I was really happy that Ulf had been so honest with me - he could have encouraged me to keep coming for lessons - and God knows he needed the money - but he gave me his opinion on what was fair and best for the dog.
Last year, I brought him my young bitch to test to see if she had enough herding instinct for HGH work. She is a Degen daughter who is a total prey monster. I was flabbergasted that she was almost totally uninterested in the sheep when she got close to them, even a little fearful. I had thought we would have to tackle her to keep her from landing in the middle of them! To tell the truth, I was extremely disappointed but it helped that Ulf was really tactful and he told me to bring her back in a few months and see if more maturity would help. It didn't - maybe a little, but she is definately not a candidate for intensive herding training. Oh, if he had only wanted money, Ulf could have had me come with Dorit for her lessons and let Inka watch and and we could have slowly started "training" her to work the sheep - but he is too ethical for that. As he said, I could do easily do AKC herding with her where there is much more "obedience" involved but I have chosen to do Schutzhund and agility which she loves.
Over all these years, except for the Instinct Testing, Ulf has never made one penny from me. Yet we have spoken on the phone, e-mailed each other, I have come and watched Dorit take lessons, come to the HGHs (and been awed by the way the dogs worked). As I said, he has never been anything but honest with me. He has a great sense of humor, is highly intelligent and yes, he can be blunt at times. However, I would far rather know where I stand with a trainer than to work with someone who will yes you to death when his or her only real interest is getting as much money out of you as possible.

Dottie

<<he can be blunt at times.>>

Me!? I thought I invented diplomacy. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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Ulf Kintzel
White Clover Sheep Farm
PH: (973) 875-7427
Email: mailto:ulf@nac.net
Web Page: http://www.users.nac.net/ulf<br />===========================