Isn't that asserting your leadership role in the pack ....... OR ....... utilizing pack drive??? Negative maybe but pack drive ala leadership just the same.

nein

You are punishing the dog by removing the rewarding fun behavior of chasing furry meat bags around a field. LOL

 Quote:

Originally posted by Laura Sanborn:
There are a wide range of behaviors that ES have toward their livestock that are not predatory in nature, and have far more in common with the mothering/nurturing behaviors of a bitch with her puppies... pack drive.

Incidentally, there is a theory held by some in the herding world, including Donald McCaig, that herding breeds were developed out of the livestock guardian breeds (there seems to be little doubt that the LGDs came first). This theory says that breeds such at the English shepherd, who have dual herding and livestock guarding functions, are remnants of the intermediate form between pure LGDs (e.g. Pyrs) and pure herding specialists (e.g. border collies).

Laura

I will add that most dogs can be socialized into thinking almost any animal is part of the pack. They are discriminative and really do know the difference between lets say…the family's cat they have always known since puppies and a squirrel or even a strange cat. One in is in the family/pack the other is not. Though both invoke some prey in their interaction they are not robots or slaves to this drive so they can and do make choices with regard to how drive is implemented and controlled.

I also think we can also attribute some of this behavior as know in behavior theory circles as a Fixed Action Pattern. (FAP) It is a FAP that works successfully for our goals. The herding behavior is a developed instinctive behavior I think that is based on selection of those herding traits. This makes sense to me because if it is true (I think it is) the herding dog developed from the livestock guardian dog. Over time people started selecting the most inter-pack bossy but tractable ones and presto a good start for the modern-day herding dog "instincts" we see today in some breeds.

 Quote:

Originally posted by VanCamp Robert:

nein

You are punishing the dog by removing the rewarding fun behavior of chasing furry meat bags around a field. LOL

Yep and it is a counterbalance to the drive and can be removed from the "Drive" lingo.

Some might say control is just the other end of the internal spectrum of the drive but really it is not. That is low or now drive for chase behavior and this is the key...It is influenced and controlled internally where the handler is executing the controlling influence.

So Laura I think dropping the "drive" and replace it with dynamics or continuity and all will fit in this discussion because we will be on the same sheet.

 Quote:

Originally posted by Dennis Hasley:

 Quote:

Originally posted by VanCamp Robert:

nein

You are punishing the dog by removing the rewarding fun behavior of chasing furry meat bags around a field. LOL

Some might say control is just the other end of the internal spectrum of the drive but really it is not. That is low or now drive for chase behavior and this is the key...It is influenced and controlled internally where the handler is executing the controlling influence.

OPPS... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Some might say control is just the other end of the internal spectrum of the drive but really it is not. That is low or now drive for chase behavior and this is the key...It is influenced and controlled internally where the handler is **NOT** executing the controlling influence.

 Quote:

Originally posted by VanCamp Robert:
"Isn't that asserting your leadership role in the pack ....... OR ....... utilizing pack drive??? Negative maybe but pack drive ala leadership just the same."

nein

You are punishing the dog by removing the rewarding fun behavior of chasing furry meat bags around a field. LOL

Bingo - negative punishment. Extremely potent to any dog that is driven to engage in ANY activity, whether it's removing the BC from the agility field, or removing the GSD from the schutzhund field, or the herding dog from the flock. Pack "drive" isn't relevant; it's simply -P.

Praise is a secondary reinforcer; it gains its power by its association with a primary reinforcer which the dog values. Whether that's food, a ball, a flock of sheep, or a bite on the helper is all dependent on what that individual dog is geared towards. Thru association, they learn that praise is a predictor that they will be allowed to engage in rewarding behavior, or to continue to engage in it. To dogs that are trained with compulsion in some form, the praise also has another meaning - relief from fear. It is a predictor that no pain will be forthcoming. The dogs who really seem to get incredibly excited by praise and wag their whole bodies and lean on the handler asking for more are usually demonstrating their relief from fear/stress. These are subordinate dogs, and the praise is acting almost like negative reinforcement - it is removing an aversive (fear) to strengthen behavior. Mowrer has a very interesting discussion of this in his text Learning Theory and Behavior.

How does one stop a behavior that the dog finds rewarding such as herding and controlling sheep without involving corrections?

If the dog flanks too hard or continues to ride on one particular sheep how cans a handler prevent its reoccurrence with out exacting some directly associate negative consequence to the behavior?

Let’s keep in mind that well-timed corrections do not immediately extinguish a behavior in most cases and so a subtle change of the behavior can be made and expected while retaining the “work” part of the behavior that is favorable. He flanks but not as hard or he pushes/herds one but maintains group control because he does not over do it. These subtleties are learned and not “instinctive” nor, in my opinion, teachable without implementing some sort of fear of being reprimanded.

Originally posted by Lee Baragona - Sch3FH2:

Praise is a secondary reinforcer; it gains its power by its association with a primary reinforcer which the dog values. Whether that's food, a ball, a flock of sheep, or a bite on the helper is all dependent on what that individual dog is geared towards. Thru association, they learn that praise is a predictor that they will be allowed to engage in rewarding behavior, or to continue to engage in it. To dogs that are trained with compulsion in some form, the praise also has another meaning - relief from fear. IMO, this is an oversimplification. While I agree that the power of praise (verbal or physical) can be enhanced by association with food or prey rewards, I disagree that praise has little or no power without these associations.

Dogs are highly social creatures, domesticated from the Grey Wolf. Wolves have a strong pack hierarchy. They also have a strong social or pack drive, and part of this is the strong need in subordinate pack members for approval from the pack leader. This is a powerful, standalone drive, one that exists in wolves to enhance pack survival. This is a drive can be “built” through reinforcement and punishment from the pack leader, but exists on it’s own, as a critical survival drive. This is analogous to “building” ball drive, which as Ed pointed out on another on going thread, is something dependent on whether the dog possesses prey drive to begin with. Likewise, the association between praise and pack leader approval needs to be created, and will be developed to a much higher level if the dog has strong genetic pack drive. You can also “build” the power of praise as a reward with food rewards or toy rewards, but it will always be much more effective as a reward if coupled with strong pack drive.

Praise is no more a secondary reward than ball rewards are secondary rewards. Both directly tap into an underlying survival drive (pack in the case of praise, prey in the case of balls) through an association to that drive that needs to be created.

It is no coincidence that many of our modern working breeds are derived from herding breeds. The herding breeds have among the strongest pack drive of any of the breeds, and most importantly, their pack drive is focused on the dog working in cooperation with his pack leader. Through the centuries, shepherds bred dogs with strong pack drive to work with their pack leader. If it was only prey drive or food drive that powered these dogs, then one’s odds of turning say, a high food drive / high prey drive sighthound into a top level obedience competitor (or any other endeavor that requires a high level of training or cooperation between man and dog) would be no lower than it is for a well bred herding breed dog. Most of what makes herding breeds so trainable is their genetic drive to work cooperatively with their pack leader. Sighthounds will never be as good at these things because they have much less of the drive for pack leader approval... pack drive.

Laura

 Quote:

Originally posted by Laura Sanborn:

 Quote:

They also have a strong social or pack drive, and part of this is the strong need in subordinate pack members for approval from the pack leader.

Praise is no more a secondary reward than ball rewards are secondary rewards. Both directly tap into an underlying survival drive (pack in the case of praise, prey in the case of balls) through an association to that drive that needs to be created.

Most of what makes herding breeds so trainable is their genetic drive to work cooperatively with their pack leader. Sighthounds will never be as good at these things because they have much less of the drive for pack leader approval... pack drive.

Laura

I don't disagree with what you're saying about pack drive being stronger in herding breeds, and that this facilitates our ability to work closely with them. But what is the subordinate dog (or wolf) actually seeking from his pack leader? Relief from stress. It's becuz the herding breeds with stronger pack drive actually give a sh*t about what the boss man feels towards them that makes them so easy to manipulate. They want to appease us, but why? To block aggression. To ensure that peaceful social relationships remain intact. Same reason a young pup will "submit" to any adult it meets by licking the muzzle, laying its ears back, lowering its head and tail. He's blocking aggression from the adult, making appeasement gestures to communicate that he acknowledges his lower status with the adult and to receive assurances from the dominant dog that they can peacefully coexist.

By growing up among humans, dogs learn that verbal praise has replaced many of the social gestures that dogs use to interact. Our verbal praise serves to communicate that we are "happy" with the dog, there is no conflict, and social relationships are strong. But they're not trying to make us happy cuz it makes them feel all warm and fuzzy inside. They're doing it cuz the resulting affirmation of their social ties/status (the praise) relieves the stress and anxiety that they feel when it is in doubt, such as when they are performing a task at our direction and the threat of disapproval and/or pain is present. Thru classical conditioning, the praise also represents a cue for a non-aversive state.

Lee, you should have been a carpenter. . .because you are hitting the nails right on their round little heads.

 Quote:

Originally posted by Lee Baragona - Sch3FH2:

By growing up among humans, dogs learn that verbal praise has replaced many of the social gestures that dogs use to interact. Our verbal praise serves to communicate that we are "happy" with the dog, there is no conflict, and social relationships are strong. But they're not trying to make us happy cuz it makes them feel all warm and fuzzy inside. They're doing it cuz the resulting affirmation of their social ties/status (the praise) relieves the stress and anxiety that they feel when it is in doubt, such as when they are performing a task at our direction and the threat of disapproval and/or pain is present. Thru classical conditioning, the praise also represents a cue for a non-aversive state.

Interesting comments Lee.

If you read the Ellen's descriptions of how her mentor Manfred Heyne "educates" herding dogs, you'll see that he uses praise but no corrections. When is the association between praise and a "non-aversive state" ever made in this relationship?

I guess I don't sense that dogs merely get off on praise because it tells them we're not going to clobber them. That certainly CAN be an association the dog makes, depending on the relationship. IMO survival drives like pack drive, prey drive, etc. involved strong positive emotions in the dog as well.

Laura