If I may reply to Liz's post. I wouldn't call you goofy either, however you were able to get a dog from a very reputable breeder, and you know what you are doing with respect to training and not letting your dog get into trouble or cross the line. What we don't know is does this family understand training and about giving the dog a number by example?
A dog could be very good in a household of children, but what is the guarantee that they will get a dog from a breeder that knows how to pick for specific needs?
They are deciding on the breed that they want, but haven't said which breed they are looking for. Each breed is different, has different needs etc...and then each dog in the litter is different as well.
Why is he thinking of these particular breeds? Is it for protection work? Is it status? Does he know why he wants a hard working breed? Again JMHO <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Regarding kids fighting: yes, they do fight, but I put serious limits on the extent to which our household is reduced to using physical force. My husband and I never strike our children ourselves, which is culturally appropriate (I understand this is not the case everywhere.)I have never seen Blitzen respond to the fighting, although he honestly does "sympathize" with a crying kid.. (follows him/her, lies down next to him, etc.)This is very heartening for the child.

All of this said, my sister has a Rott and she's "into" it. She had Jack for 5 years before having her first child; Jack is now 8, and she has two little boys. She keeps them entirely seperated, except when she is present. Despite this, her son once took Jack's ball and the dog growled... she knew she needed to establish her authority and respond severely to the aggression, or put him down. Imagine a nine-months-pregnant, 5'2", bawling, swollen woman beating the toast out of a 125 pound Rott! She gave him a bloody nose. My mother was there, says it was the craziest thing she ever saw.

My sister will not get a Rott again... absolutely loves the breed, but does not think they should ever be in families with children. And, if Jack ever growls again (it's been almost two years since the one incident) she will put him down. She'll cry her eyes out, but I know she'll do it.

I know that GSDs and Rotts are used similarly under some circumstances, but they strike as having very different characters. I have 0 authority to say this... it's an impression.

You're right about my generalizing... it took years to find Ed, when I was looking 6 and more years ago; I wanted a GSD, but was unwilling to commit to one until I was certain I had found the best breeder possible. I know there are no guarantees... and I do think that matching animals to owners is as much art as science... but my experience has been SO POSITIVE that I can't help but wish it on others.

The conditions Blitzen has been exposed to can be distilled this way: very minimal physical force; humans are the "pathway" to gratification; much love and inclusion in the family; much socializing with others beyond the family, both in home and elsewhere; contact with other animals from very early on. I might add that Blitzen has never been mistreated.

We did use Ed's videos to guide us through puppy training, so that's what Blitzen was exposed to as a little guy.

And of course, he started with great genes. Really, that's the best I can tell you.

Liz

Liz,
No offense to Ed, I'm sure he knows what he is doing, but that being said, I feel compelled to point out that your experience could have gone completely in the opposite direction ***so*** easily. And to tell you the truth, just based upon my personal observations, you are in the minority. A situation like yours, where kids and dogs live in perfect harmony, is not the norm. A situation like your friend's with the Rott, that is the norm. It's sad and unfortunate, but based upon what I see, true.

Now, that may be because of careless breeding, or careless handling, or a combination of both things. In the U.S., the general companion dog situation is beyond shameful, and in my opinion, is the biggest factor behind the vast majority of dog bites and attacks. The other factor is well-meaning people, who get dogs and don't properly train and socialize them, either out of ignorance, being too busy to own a dog and being better suited for a goldfish, or just plain laziness.

At any rate, whatever Brendan's friend decides, hopefully it will be an educated and well thought out decision, which is the most important thing here.

J. I have to completely agree with you.
There are wonderful stories about families all getting along with their dog(s) and unfortunately too many others that Don't.
Liz you have demonstrated that your experience is a wonderful one, and I have no doubt in my mind that it is a combination of good breeding, good placement and good training and socialization on your part.
You mentioned that you don't hit the kids, which I think is great. If you can train kids with that constraint, you can certainly train a dog with the same. Behaviour modification with people and dogs is the same. Positive reinforcement for good behaviour. Correction if not. I know that this is simplified. What was written, was that this woman takes a wooden spoon to the kids. Can you imagine the reaction of the child. What message would this give the dog?
This isn't about placing a dog in your family, it is about placing a dog in the family of many kids, and the wooden spoon.
I have to say that I am very concerned about the potential outcome of this.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Its not like this woman buys wooden spoons by the shipping container load cause she wears them out on her kids backsides so quickly. I probabaly overstated that side of things. I just wanted to give a bit of a idea that this family isnt a epsiode of the waltons but by the same token it isnt the simpsons multiplied by seven either.
The family in question are hassidic jews. Both parents are educated people, we're not talking billy bob and cousin' semlma considering buying a coon hound /pit bull cross off Boss Hog or whatever to keep little abner and jethro safe from the rest of the trailer park kids whilst the parents are watching jerry springer. Not that there anything wrong with trailer parks or pits. (Glad I dont live in one of them though).
Anyway they were thinking a working breed cause there exists unfortunately anti semetic cowardly scum vermin in the world. Things like going to a park with their kids and having people abuse them or make remarks are a reality for them. Not common but it does happen. And once these sort of things happen it plays on peoples minds. Rascists are cowards by defintion and are exactly the sort of people who are detered by the presence of a imposing dog.

Brendan "The Diplomat" Powning wrote:

"Rascists are cowards by defintion and are exactly the sort of people who are detered by the presence of a imposing dog."

I've been staying out of this discussion for the most part, but I must say Mr. Powning--you certainly ran that one into the end zone! Bloody good show.

Pete Felknor

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to suggest that they were beating their kids, however there are ways to deal with children and pets that don't entail hitting especially with a hard item. The quickest way to make a dog not trusting or hand shy is to hit it (unless done in protection work, gradually increasing the amount in a controlled environment, by someone who knows what the heck they are doing). My feeling is if they do this with thier children as a means of discipline what makes you think they won't do this with the dog? Or worse yet that one of the children might do this with the dog. I was also interested in their motivations for this type of dog.
While I understand the anti semitism issue, I don't know if this is a good reason to get an imposing dog, unless one is going to train it well. Do they have the time, knowledge and inclination for that? If there are problems with others will they not be setting themselves up for trouble and attention? This can deter people, but can also encourage them. They may want a confrontation, and then what? What they may need is a personal protection dog. Can their busy household handle it? You are the one that knows these people. Based on the information that you have given and the responses you have recieved are they safe candidates for this type of dog? My responses are based on what you have stated about this family. Perhaps they should wait until thier children are a bit older. JMHO

Phyllis, alway with the wooden spoon! Forget the wooden spoon! Who said anything about hitting the dog with a wooden spoon? or the hand! As for telling other people how to raise their own kids, thats their affair, they made 'em, they feed,cloth and educate 'em so thats their business. I wouldnt be brave enough to tell the lady how to raise her kids, she'd rip me a new one.

Anyway Phylllis and Liz how do your dogs respond if your kids start wrestling or play fighting? Do they keep on sleeping or whatever or do they start getting agitated by it?

Brendan... I anticipated the potential for trouble in mentioning my parenting choices in early postings on this subject. I am sincere when I say that I recognize cultural and individual family differences in this area; while I don't use "swatting", etc., there are reasonable folks who do. (I confess, my three-year-old "teased" me by pretending to be heading for a busy highway while at a birthday party today... his fanny hit the time-out chair so fast, it may well qualify as a "swatt"!)

In Phyllis' defense, it seems she is raising the general question of "household intensity"... correct me if I misunderstand, Phyllis. I am extremely fortunate to have a very composed GSD, and I am not tolerant of much physical fighting among the kids. Call it sanity preservation.

The question appears to be, does household intensity impact the character of animals? I can't imagine that it wouldn't. My uneducated suspicion is that a naturally calm dog would become, nerve-wise, virtually impenetrable. Conversely, I suspect that a naturally nervous dog would become an anxious wreck.

In answer to the specific question of how Blitzen responds to kids spats, etc.: He ignores them. If one emerges with a hurt body or hurt feelings, Blitzen does offer company and "condolences"... a furry, canine cuddle goes a long way in comforting a distressed kid. I'll add that he has been particularly attentive and affectionate toward me on several ocassions when I was very upset. In other words, he responds to sadness or anxiety with a big dog head on the lap... but I've never seen him worry or get "into it" when anyone "fights"... verbally or otherwise.

Okay???

Thanks for your input Liz, its interesting that your Blitzen is a Leerburg dog so I guess we can presume he has the genetics for work. I haven't seen how my rott bitch reacts around wrestling/play fighting kids but my suspiscion is that she would want to get in there and do a bit of 'playfighting' herself. She is fine around kids otherwise, very friendly, loves a pat and cuddle from anyone who will give her one,Ive never seen anything in her behaviour to suggest she dislikes kids per se it just seems that people moving around fast and/or grappling one another triggers some sort of instinctive response. I dont think she'd rush in and start tearing strips off a kid but Im fairly confident she'd grab onto to something and start pulling on it same as she does when we play the 'sack game'. She's just gone about 16 months, maybe its a age issue, as she matures she might not be so easily triggered in this area. Maybe it just she is high prey drive animal. I asked the breeder for a bitch suitiable for trainning as a PPD. I'd be interested in anyones else experiences with trainned PPD responses around playing/running/screaming kids. Is it commond for this sort of kid behaviour to 'stir up' a dog? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />