Ok David,

Now we are both talking from very different points of view...

I said allowing an adult dog to correct a "hyper pup".. you are talking about a dog that is constantly "beating on a pup for no reason.... to me that falls in the realm of dog aggression... and then that would qualify as learned behavior...

being corrected for being "rowdy" will NOT lead to dog aggression... being constantly "attacked" Could lead to dog aggression

further,

what is this less-than-desireable trait that comes from a dog being corrected?? Self-Control???

Heaven forbid that a puppy learn limits in its young life... be it dog or human impossed, I see nothing wrong with a young animal learning limits... it makes the transition to adulthood that much easier.

Im talking about dog vs dog . A less than desirable trait would be a dog that when it sees another dog thinks it needs to run over to it and laydown or roll over on its back,or even worse thinks it needs to get the upperhand before it gets corrected. Proper socialization is good letting dogs work it out on their own terms is not.
Heaven forbid we raise a dog to act like it has some confidence and knows how to behave in someway other than the call of the wild.

Mat
I've tried both ways the stay out of it and let the Alpha dog correct the puppy can make the puppy a little submissive at least when the alpha is around. The puppy was very high spirited and confident now she is confident by now so much when the other dog is around. I almost thought she wouldn't do bite work, but with some coaching she came around.

The new puppy was not left to nature and alway crated or monitored around the others. And she is a lot more confident and of a higher spirit. And from previous testing will probably not have the draw back of the other puppy. This was not a mother puppy relationship, but still it has reference.

There is a certain point when a mother dog will discipline harder then just nape shake. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

1. Who cares if your dog is a dominant dog in regards to other dogs or not? We are not raising and training dogs to fight dogs... but to fight persons...

2. When dogs are allowed to run free, or moderatly there of, it simply allows them to develop their own sense of pack, and dominance level... It cracks me up that everyone wants their dog to be an "Alpha" when in reality, most could not handle a true "Alpha" dog.. so they try to hype up their beta (at best) dog....

In my mind, pack (true dog to dog) dominance has vey little bearing on the ability to handle protection work....

Alpha is rather subjective, isn't it?

I'm just telling you what happen to the puppies that I raised. I am not training fighting dogs, but I notice that the dog dominated will fight other dogs faster then the other two that were not dominated by anybody but me. I'm shocked that you have not seen or discovered that in every pack there is a hiearchy I'm the Alpha pack leader, 3 yr old is the Alpha-dog leader, 2 yr old is the next in line and the other puppy though she doesn't know it is next in line. This is just the way it is. It doesn't have anything to do with dog fighting unless you have a rift in the pack order.

How did that get taken for training dog fighter?

Don,

my previous post was actually aimed at David, you just happened to post while I was still typing <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

but my point regarding dog's/humans/other dogs still stays the same...

whether or not a dog is submissiv to another dog has very little to do with his apptitude or williness to do protection work...

think of how highly non-generalizing a dog is.... they do not relate their status at home with your dogs to their role on the protection field...
I am not saying that if you consistently beat down a dog, that over time his confidence won't take a drop.... (I know.. you are sayign to yourself "that is what I have been saying all along")...but...
there is a difference between a couple of corrections here and there, and total abuse...

I guess my overall point is, the terms that we are throwing around is very subjective.. and that is what seperates dog trainers from good dog trainers.

not trying to "cop-out".... I have 12month male and a 4 year-old male... I let the 2 work out their differences when he was a young pup... once maturity set in, now I do referee... sure because now they are doing things beyond "play".. but the early days did not encourage that.. they both have dominance "issues".. and now I must be vigilant of that, but keeping them seperated before hand would have greatly enhanced these issues, not lightened...

Ok sorry Matt,

I don't want to take nobdy elses beating. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
But I do think that having a puppy dominated can change the way the dog responds to the changing events around him. To the point of wanting to get the first bite in, if approached by a strange dog or make the dog a little nervous around strange people and noise. Just my finding in my own little situation, the Alpha doesn't seem to be shaken by much of anything.

Now this could be just a Male - Female thing I'm seeing. But the other Female is a lot cockier and when playing fetch will via for the item if the Alpha has it, now the other female would not dare, well she may grab if she thinks he is bring it too slow, but she want try to take it.

It may not matter in protection work, but there is a difference in the dogs presence in this incident. That makes the other two seem tougher, you are the dog can do protection, but its how he/she does it, is what I'm talking about.

Typo I can't edit, using the edit function.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> You are right the dog can do protection, but its how he/she does it, is what I'm talking about.