Surely there is a place for all types of selection,but the worrying point is the difference between the show dog and the working dog.The Dobbie is a good example,Her Dobermann bred this dog as a pure guarding dog,when he died the breed was altered to improve its popularity.
The original GSD,Horath was I am sure very different from todays dog and both of these have only been in existance for about 100 years,the GSDs my grandfather bred 60 years ago are nothing like todays dogs,if we base our breeding on Line or Genetics will we not end up with another completely different type of dog.
Most working breeders bring in outside stock to refresh their breeding and none that I know base their selection on anything but years of first hand experience and a specific use for the dogs.
Paul

 Quote:

Originally posted by VanCamp:
I don't get this whole post. Most of the time you jerks are talking about the same thing, why don't you stick to the few things that you are in disagreement about. Its too long for all us other jerks to read. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Let's see ....

With inbreeding & close line breeding you normally can not expect to produce anything better than what you start with (the parents). With outcrossing you have the chance to produce something better than the parents.

Is that short enough for ya? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> No backup reasons requested -- no backup reasons given <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> . If knowledge is power, understanding might blow us all away!!

Juan O'DeJerks (I'm an outcross: spanish, irish & italian) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

 Quote:

Originally posted by jason:
Earlier, it sounded to me like you two were slamming line breeding.

From my point of view I see my posts more as DEFENDING the concept & use of outcrossing from your critical remarks than "slamming" line breeding.

Now, your saying things like: "There is definitely a place for both types of breeding"

I don't recall anyone having said otherwise -- in spite of your efforts to "infer" it.

Your "quotes" attributed to me are taken out of context. I went over what I posted & I have nothing to add or to change. My comments are clear. What is also clear is that you don't seem to understand what I have said.

Going back to the beginning it seems that you must have taken issue with the following statement I made in the parent thread of this discussion when I said: "....I don't think it is an issue of preference or diversity in what one breeds for as much as it is about HOW one goes about getting there. One can achieve the same results by "outcross" breeding -- by selecting the same phenotypes from different lines -- one does not have to inbreed or line breed to hold or set preference types." The keys words there are "ONE DOES NOT HAVE TO".

All my subsequent posts were basically defending that statement ......... that statement says NOTHING about only outcrossing or never line breeding. Take a deep breath -- I'm not attacking your theories, just the results when taken to an extreme.

Jason, by suggesting that those who disagree with YOUR interpretation of genetic principles are wrong you are apparently claiming to be an expert.

Since all we know about your background is that you are a farmer... perhaps you can clarify a bit about your formal training in genetics.

Additionally, a reference for the "principles of genetics" that you are citing may be helpful.

 Quote:

Originally posted by Jerry Cudahy:
What do you think ....... Somewhere in this thread the term toolbox came up. Well my tool box contains good working dogs that are outcrossed, a stronger sense of line breeding and the odd dash of inbreeding. This is my idea of breeding for myself and the dogs that I like to work day in and out.

To answer your question -- whatever works is right IMO. However, just to pick another nit (sorry) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> -- to my way of thinking the tools available for breeding are the theories and experiences available to you for making breeding decisions -- your breeding stock is the raw material to use your tools on.

I don't think I would call anyone a breeding "expert". No matter how much one has bred nor how successfully one has bred, gene-shuffling has a funny way of keeping us all humble. That's why the study of genetics may be a science and have its experts, but the practical application of the science on an individual basis is more an art -- at least now when incredibly more is being discovered about genes every day. The more that is learned, the more we discover what we don't know.

Purposeful breeding requires a clear focus of exactly what traits you must have to achieve what you want in your results -- and successful breeding requires as fool-proof a way of testing those results in each generation to make sure you have re-produced them before going on to breed the next generation. You work your dogs, so the proof for you is in the work you do with them.

IMO a wise breeder who has a specific goal in mind and a way of accurately testing each generation produced will wait and let each generation tell him what tool to use for breeding the next generation. Relying on a fixed recipe for breeding doesn't make it fool-proof and doesn't always work -- JMO.

Bottom line is -- you have to answer your own question. You know your dogs, your work and what you need. The clearer your focus is, the better your breeding decisions will be.

Jerry,

We had some very good luck going mother to son, not so much going father to daughter. The next generation you should go out of the line though as you are getting awfully close. One thing that does tend to happen is that if the line has a marginal weakness someplace, even if it hasn't shown up in any dogs, it may raise it's head. As Ellen said, you know your dogs and that ends up being the primary consideration.

VanCamp,

If you cover Sh** with chocolate it may look really good until you bite in. That is one of the problems with line breeding in dogs.

There are concerns in breeding dogs that don't come up with breeding farm animals, the biggest one is numbers. Depending on the breed you have considerations like being able to maintain control over enough dogs that can't be kept together. With sheep or cattle even the smallest farmer will contol over a hundred animals fairly easily, try that with dogs.

It ends up being like training, I love it when someone starts a conversation " I have never done any of this, but you are full of s**t after training for 20 years." You can't discuss much with someone that knows it all, which is much easier if you have no track record to look at. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, I have done it enough with enough different types of animals to know I am always going to be guessing about the specifics of any small group of progeny. Genetics is always based on large numbers of breeders and progeny. Based on that looking at any small group becomes looking at a crap shoot and sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you don't.

The idea that you are going to make any simple statement about breeding demonstrates a lack of any real knowledge of the process.

There are no simple solutions to complex issues...or, as the saying goes..."Man plans...God laughs".

Richard,

I have planned the mother to son breeding in fact for several generations behind with the hopes that everything would work out and it appears that they have to this point. There is no question in my mind that beyond the proposed inbreding that I must go out beyond my lines which in itself presents a problem as with Malinois there are but a true few dogs that are really behind most of all the really good breeding prospects.

One of the options that is of interest to me is the cross out to another breed, the Dutch Shepherd perhaps or a DDR or Hungarian Working type GSD to completly introduce raw new blood to difuse the unknown Bad Genes from taking hold but at the same time I want the inbred litter at this time to try and get a handle on these genes so that I can plan for breedings several gens down the road.

If and it is a big if that I do cross out to a new breed I will be line breeding back on the few important Malinois lines that I like to these hybrids.

Before anyone wants to jump in and say well what about the paper. Paper, does not interest me any longer. Has not for some time as with the Malinois a high percentage of peds are simply false to start with.

The individuals who do attain my dogs are not interested in breeding dogs but more so the dogs ability when needed.

My dogs are not show dogs, they are working dogs that do the 9 to 5 bit everyday in the respective fields they work in.

Goals in the future of my breeding, have become more important than the next breeding in itself.

Jerry

Mother - Son, father - daughter, mixing with another breed. You guys are really SCARING me. Frankenstein would be proud.