I agree that the issue is about genetics, not nomenclature. That's why we should just be discussing what goes into a working bloodline. Why do we have to identify it as German, Czech, etc. other than to provide a basis of reference. If I offered to sell you a German GSD or a Czech GSD, would you buy it? Not until you knew its particular bloodline. That I called it German or Czech should have no bearing on your decision.

Assuming you - VC - would be interested in a dog of Todd's out of CJ and Danu, would you care if Todd referred to the dog as and American GSD? or would you just be interested in the bloodlines/genetics of CJ and Danu? My point - the only one - is that this is all a matter of semantics. Let's just go breed good dogs.

It certainly has to do with the dogs bloodlines. And if Todd had told me he was breeding American bloodlines I would never have even bothered with his website or him.

Why. . .because I know there are no good working dogs from American bloodlines.

I can hear a bloodline (west german or czech) and immediately make some inferences from those statements about what kind of dogs he is talking about and what they generally produce.

If you want to break it down that far, then why even bother calling them Shepherds? Why not just them dogs. . .he breeds dogs, he breeds some good dogs? I like his dogs, they can work. Does it matter where the dog came from in that respect. . .NO! Unless you want to breed. . . thats what we are talking about.

We are talking about BLOODLINES, the general genetic populations of dogs.

There is no genetic population of working dogs that are American bred that you can call "American Lines".

I think it makes a difference.

Lets just breed better dogs doesn't mean anything to me. You have to understand what a dog brings to your lines and that will have a lot to do with his specific bloodline and still some to do with he overall bloodline.

If Todd wanted to call those pups American lines he would be wrong. They are west german and czech.

That means something.

Again, I agree, it's bloodlines/genetics, not what we choose to call them. I assumed we discussed GSDs as opposed to dogs because they are a recognized breed of dog. If we want to sub-categorize, let's do it by creating an entirely different "breed" of dog. In other words, let's make a formal distinction between ASSes and working GSDs - two separate and distinct breeds. I certainly have no objection to doing this - which I think, based upon all of VanCamp's posts that I've read, is what you would like to do and, in your own mind, actually do. The problem comes when we stick to calling our dogs GSDs. We then want to sub-categorize them to give people a better idea of our particular dog's characteristics. Notwithstanding my previous posts, I refer to my dog as a GSD from German show lines (I know now, he's a great dog but the next one is pure working lines - German, Czech or otherwise) because it conveys certain qualities about him.

I guess, in retrospect, it's the same as describing someone as a hillbilly or yuppie. Both are human and American, but the description conveys certain information. Judging someone or a dog simply on type without looking further leads to mistakes. So in the end, it all comes back to genetics and a little bit of luck. Maybe the best description would be an American GSD from ______ working lines? A mouthful and I can already hear the groans - or in VanCamp's case, the shouting and banging of a keyboard. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

VanCamp, you obviously type (and probably think) faster than I do. With Todd's dogs - after how many generations do West German and Czech dogs become American? And what do we call a mix between West German and Czech? Wechs? I still think it's a matter of semantics, though certain information is conveyed with the descriptor.

I consider an American dog, a dog that is not being worked in some form. If the parents are imports and the pup is not being worked then I feel it has become Americanized. If the pup is raised and breed without working titles then I feel the puppies are american, no matter what country they may be from Czech, Germany, Belgium. If the parents are not titled and not working, then I am not interested. Just my opinion.

Brad

Ok Brad, what about when a dog from import lines is not worked but its progeny are? Do they go back to being from import lines? Hi, this is my Czech GSD from "americanized" parents from Czech working lines. Wow, and I thought my last idea was a mouthful. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> And just when we boiled it down to genetics. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Anyway, time to head home. Can't wait to see what gets posted in my absence. Goodnight all (except to those of you on the otherside of the world, in that case, good morning <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> )

I agree about dropping the human/dog breeding comparisions, it is absurd and suggests a lack of understanding of how genetics operates in dog breeding where genetics are *everything*. To quote a famous geneticist/scholar: *You can't make chicken salad out of chicken s**t*.

Well if the truth be told, yes the ambred (aka north american hyenna dog or alternatively, ASS) IS a completely separate and distinct breed. That's how far it has strayed from it's original form. I suspect many of us would be delighted if the ack folks would just cook up some name for themselves and get the hell away from calling their dogs GSDs. It's outright fraud. Didn't this happen w/the white dogs?

We look at *bloodlines* not the fact that a single dog was hatched in Iowa or Florida or where the heck ever b/c you can't improve the breed if you fixate on an individual dog. That's the same logic novices employ when they look at their fabulous pet doggie and decide this must be bred b/c pet doggie is so pretty and smart and all. Gawd knows what this dog will produce.

Yes, you must look at the individual dogs but you must also consider bloodlines. Otherwise, you will be tempted to breed the white, long haird K9 in Westwoebegone.

Stan,

I think it would be very rare to find a male and female import untitled whose puppies grow-up to be titled. I have seen one of the parents titled and the progeny grow-up to be titled, but not both. With all the good imported titled dogs out there why take a chance on imports who are not titled, what messege does this send the puppy buyer if the parents are not thought of highly enough to title? When was the last time someone bragged about a linebreeding on an untitled dog? I believe European imports being breed without titles will produce future american type dogs.