Don't give up Stig, but I think you are wrong.

Take that Pete. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I don't want to see the same litter produced over and over again all over the world. But, that isn't gonna happen. Re-using some good studs in the course of a breeding program would not be a bad thing. Having a healthy geme pool is one thing, but saying that, using frozen seedlings from some of the great stud dogs, is wrong. . . well THAT is wrong.

No idiot out there is gonna breed a million Mink litters that are going to populate and breed the GSD world into extinction.

Used responsibly linebreeding and frozen samples from studs will improve the breed, not destroy it.

Real life now. A breeder in one area will now be able to breed to many dogs that would have been unreachable due to money and distance. This is gonna be more and more popular. That is going to improve breeding as long as it is used in a positive way. Just like anything else, a tool is only as good as the jerk using it.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Van Camp--

"Take that, Pete <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> ???" You seem to be confusing me with my talented ex-wife, who posted the missive above.

However, for the sake of argument, I totally agree with her on this particular issue...

Ultimately, enlarging the gene pool = GOOD. Narrowing the gene pool = BAD. It takes longer to get "great results" this way... but there it is.

NOW you can all come after me! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Pete Felknor

my bad

Take that Renee <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> .

sorry pete

Just a question, but can you guys color code your posts er somethin'. I guess I don't read so good. . .

:rolleyes:

VanCamp:

You've been a moderator for less than one day and already managed to call Cindy Cindi and me Pete. One more "bad" like that and you are history.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

VanCamp,

You in trouble already? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

To blame anything on technology is a waste of time. It depends on how it is used. There can be "bottlenecks" created with the over use of a single, or very few stud dogs. By the same token, frozen semen can be used for breedings when it isn't prcatical to get dogs together for a breeding.

It is going to come down to how it is used. In my breed there aren't many in the North America. In my state there are 3 BRT, and they are related closely enough that I am going to go out of the lines for my next breeding. From Arizona the nearest really good dogs are in San Diego, San Francisco, Detroit, and Toronto. I don't like to fly dogs so I am looking at having to drive to one of those places to breed my bitch. Not to mention the difficulty in timing the trips. It would be a lot nicer to just have the stud "shipped in".

Chris,

I´m confident that the genetican I spoke to are right in this matter. He has done research on lots of breeds here in Sweden regarding genetic variation and DNA-analyzis of breeds. And has an experience few could match. He has desigend a dataprogramm that breeders could use,to see how much genetic variation there are in a breed,to see which breedings could be done without lowering the genetic variation under critcal levels in each generation. and have been involved in the breedings of GSDs for servicework for military and police that was ruled by the state here in sweden during the 30s to late 80s. He has also been involved in a testingsystem we have worked on for many years here in sweden to measure the mentality that a studdog produce in his offsprings in none trainable situations. This system is used here in scandinavia, and top handlers in germany have showed a big intresset in how we test the menatility here in sweden. When it comes to the wolf question the answear is simpel. In most cases in wild animals of dogtype like the wolf, the amount of males that produce the offspring are quite high. In wild wolves it is also common with buildings of pairs, this means that the amount of males and bitches that gets offspring are similar. With this balance between the sexes, maximum genetic variation is preserved. Therefore the risk of doubbled genes from the same origin are minimized, which have the effect that the degree of inbreeding in regard to the number of animals in an animalpopulation are kept on lowest levels. In sweden we had a small genepool of wild wolves, they started to show healthproblems because of this, but recently fresh blood from russia has been introduced so now the situation looks better for the wolves. If we must use old blood in our breedingprogramms, something is wrong, this must mean that we don´t make any progress. To use old blood again, that already in many cases have been used to much is a death sin in a breedingprogramm. I feel kind of sad that so many breeders use old breedingmethods like linebreeding and think this is the right way to build a healthy strong workingbreed that could stay strong in the future. If this was the case, why so much illness in our breeds today. If anyone has doubts about my opinions the best thing to do is to post a question about the effects of line/inbreeding on the website this genetican have, I´m sure he´s going to change your minds. But I guess I should send him an e-mail first to see if it´s okey with englishspeaking breeders, I guess some swedes could be irritated if to many americans posted lots of questions in enghlish. If someone is intressted I could give you the adress.

So long!

 Quote:

Originally posted by stig:
. . . If you want workingability and health you should select breeding partners that has been selective breed for similar character during several generation, independent of the origins of the dogs. If you breed a strong dog, to another strong dog, which have similar character, you have a good chance to get good puppies, even if they have no close relations. . . . and then countinue the breeding with his best son instead, so the breed as a whole gets stronger and stronger after each generation . . .

That pretty much says it all IMO <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

If you select breeding partners based on specific working, temperament, nerve, intelligence, character, etc. characteristics, that means you have to actually see (and better yet -- you actually have to get to know ) the actual dog(s) you want to breed. Pieces of paper may tell you the training achievements and lineage -- but your own observation is the key to achieving your own breeding objectives -- unless, of course, you don't have any clear breeding objectives in which case then you do have to rely on the opinions and objectives of others.

Getting back to the topic of frozen semen <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> . It's a great idea but with one drawback -- it's kind of difficult to actually see or know the sperm donor first-hand if its either dead or too far away to breed to physically. JMO.

Stig:

Only 24 states in the US have laws about first-cousin breeding. No European country prohibits cousin marriages. Same deal with Canada. Franklin D. Roosvelt marriaged his cousin, and the first prime minister of Canada married his first cousin.

Renee:

Hemophilia is a recisive gene. It is not caused by inbreeding. Queen Victoria of England is responsible for the gene being introduced into the gene pool. That is why the disease didn't pop up until around the 1900's. The monarchs of this time were not extensively inbreed either. Since the disease is passed on by women, you would simply allow them not to breed. But this is a royal family so that wouldn't work.

In dogs if some recesive gene pops up you can breed it out of them, using linebreeding.

The bottom line is the social stigma that goes along with marring cousins. Its weird, but there's nothing wrong with it.

Robert

Just like ellen said, you don´t have no firsthand experience with the donator, you have to rely on others opinions.
Wismz, It´s not single marriage with cousins that is dangerous(but it increases the risk of doubbled defected genes in the offspring) It´s linebreeding and overusing of few dogs in limited genepool that is dangerous. Humans have no limited populations. Imagine a isolated human population with 100 males and 100 females. If a few of the males should have offspring in great amount, this lead to a more and more narrow genetic variation, that in the end lead to destruction, if the don´t change their "breedingpolicy". To think that you could weed out all bad genes with line/inbreeding is totaly wrong. I´m already explained this in another breedingtopic.
What concerns me is that some geneticans recommend line/inbreeding and then breeders use this method, sometimes you see breeders who say "we use intensive line/inbreeding to create healty strong dogs" this really worries me. I asked the genetican I refer to that some other geneticans have different opinions than he, just like chris j said. He gave me the following answear. " When it comes to different opinions about line/inbreeding between me and other "dog-geneticans" the reason is that I´m a "domestic animal genetican" with over 40 years experience of scientific research and practical breedings. Many geneticans that have differnt opinions have primarly worked with breedings of plants or just theoretical, not in real life. Besides there are a big difference if you like me work with genetics regarding populations in animals compared to other areas within genetic science. Without experience of the longgoing consequence of different breedingmethods it´s easy to underestimate the risk with breedings in small genepools or with intensive linebreeding. Besides most people don´t see that the result they gain with linebreeding isn´t consistent, it goes away in the same moment that you need fresh blood to retain the genetic variation which have been lost during the linebreeding"
Anyway, if someone is intressted you are welcome to ask him breedingquestions on his board. The adress is http://www.genetica.se
To post here, click first on "diskussion" and then "skriv nytt inlägg" which means "post a new question" There you write your name and the topic you want to discuss. Ärende=topic in Swedish.

Regards