Caniche stated he uses a pinch on and off with his soft standard poodle. I have some seen soft dogs actually respond better to the pinch than the normal choke(training) collar. A jerk from a training collar will often send a really soft dog into avoidance, whereas the pinch is more suttle.
Caniche
With the trainability of the standard poodles, why not just send them to the library and let them do their own research on training. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Great dogs!

Laureen
I'll bet your "work in progress" will self correct the first time you take him for a walk with a pinch. Just don't get soft the first time he might yelp cause its more out of supprise than any discomfort. Your other dogs sound great on leash, this guy could possibly use the pinch.

I also use the rubber tips that go on the prong collar with good results. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
On taking your dog to the library, no way will Ilet my dog read material I do not understand!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

We do watch Ed's training vodeo's together. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
Using the prong collar on my GSD has been the best thing I could have done for him. Before coming to this Board I only used a Slip/Choke chain collar. This allows the dog to build up a tolorance to the corrections being given. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
When using the the Slip/Choke collar the level of correction went from sometimes a -8- to a -5- depending on exercise.

When I changed over to a prong collar the level of correction has never been over a -5- most of the time a level-3-, also did not take as many corrections.

I have found it usually take about 30 to 50 repitions of a command before the dogs begin to understands the command, lesser number of corrections the better for the dog.JMHO

Then again I'm no Trainer, some may have quicker results.

If you decide to try the pinch I would advise you take him out by himself the first time. He might think one of the other dogs are giving him some shtick and want to return the favor.

oldearthdog, I agree with what you say about self correcting. Also you should learn at what level to correct your dog. With a tuff dog you can over correct in the beginning and later will be unable to up the corrections to a workable level.

Always use the lowest level of correction that get the dogs attention. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

OldE, last night the Siberian had a "brain dysfunction" and self-corrected. Oh, he could of won an Academy Award for his performance. Since I have used this same prong on my arm for a demonstration I know it doesn't really hurt.
Yes, OldE I did send my dog into what I now know as avoidance a few times when I was training. Actually the prong when I began to use it caused him a lot less stress at that time than a flat coller correction. But a lot of that was my own high standards (I was, by my own admission, guilty of being a drill sargeant), my inexperience and typical N.D.O. (New Dog Owner)heebie-jeebies). Now he responds to verbal reprimands/corrections very well. I would not hesitate to use a prong again on a new dog if he needed it. And I myself have learned a lot in the 9 years I've had my dog and the months that I've been reading these discussions. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Crabtree, 10 or less before my Einstein wanna-be with a library card grasps the basic intent of the new command. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
SPs aren't that bad at all! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Ok, Caniche. When I wrote 30 to 50 repetitions, is that he understood the command. Yes most dogs will respond after around 10 repetitions. To what degree of understanding?

Maybe reading they retain more material then watching the video's. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
This has been a interesting thread, so many different training concepts being used at the present time.

Crabtree, when I think back on his initial training I remember he had excellent memory retention, well into the next day. I believe he understood the initial concepts fairly quickly, my trainers thought so too.
Of course all of those Mensa workbooks must have helped him in his mental development. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Caniche, It might be a good idea for me to let my wife imprint our new pup, seems she's always at a teacher's seminar.(new learning concepts and training)
My GSD also had good retention, the Akita was not nearly as intelligent.